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On 6/17/2021 at 3:41 AM, DasFrodo said:

 

I disagree. A UI and UX can be judged after a couple of hours already. At least to a certain extent. After a couple of hours I can already tell if an interface is unintuitive as hell or not, if it's ugly or beautiful and if parts of it make sense or don't. I can use zBrush for 10 hours and still tell the UI is an absolute dumpsterfire.

 

People that have used the software for thousands of hours are often blind to problems with the UI, myself included. "It's not that bad" or "If you learn it you'll be okay with it" is stuff I've often heard about Blender or zBrush.

 

Problem is "it's not that bad" is "it's horrible"s little brother.

To a certain extent, I agree with everyone.  My main test for whether or not I can work with a program is to spend the first couple of hours working my way through the interface without the benefit (and in complete absence of) any training.  C4D just clicked with me...I could figure it out.  Not so much with modo (the object manager in the early versions was a stumbling block and I have never looked back) and to a lesser extent the same with Blender.   

 

Now, with that said, I am still finding out smarter ways to work with C4D after 16 years.  There are elements of the UI that make me wonder why I didn't find that years ago.  The answer to that is simply that you fall into a methodology and keep to it out of habit.  So I think that comments to people's initial exposure to Blender are just as valid as expert's criticism of the interface.  All is good feedback.

 

But if I may add something --- from watching the Blender tutorials, there is almost this "pride" over being able to navigate through the bumps in the Blender UI and/or workflow.  Which makes me wonder if that pride suppresses complaints and therefore creates a status quo that people do not dare challenge.  I mean, why can't primitives remain parametric until the user decides to make them editable?  That should be an easy fix.  I hear some complaints about it but the response on the forums from Blender "gods"  is almost like "How dare you question our culture -- Shame on you for bringing it up!".  This is an over-exaggeration, but you get the point.  These guys are the experts!  They are the publicly recognized power users.  They have a voice but they don't support the person raising the issue....they just explain it away with something along the lines of "Hey, this is Blender and it has always been that way".   To me that is complacency from people who could make a difference as I would imagine they have close ties to the development community.   The fact that they can't explain why it is not being addressed implies they have accepted rather than raised the issue.  That complacency to accept things that could be changed is never good.   

 

Now in contrast, users bringing up long standing complaints over C4D don't get shamed for bringing it up but the response from the C4D gods  is usually a disappointing "Yeah....brought this up 5 versions ago and on every revision since then.  I have no idea what the developers are doing".  Hey, at least they are trying.

 

Dave

Sorry...but I simply do not have enough faith to be an atheist.

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On 6/16/2021 at 12:53 PM, contrafibbularities said:

I mostly do modeling, and I think after all these years it's time for me to finally move on since I don't see C4D develop into anything that would make me want to upgrade or continue using it. I invested a lot of money in C4D, plugins, and training, too, and will keep using R18 for a little while longer. R18 still is my personal favourite release, and i still like using it. I must admit though that I've hardly opened it since I started with Blender. For me, switching has been long overdue. The modeling tools haven't been developed in years. A lot of the plugins for R18 that I still use are no longer working in newer versions or were discontinued. XParticles doesn't support R18 anymore. Blender is free, plugins and training are very affordable. Add-ons like HardOps offer a whole new world of hard surface modeling options, and I want to explore those and new ways of creating things. 

 

@Dave

While there probably are tutorials out there along the lines you are looking for, it's a bit difficult to get through all the basics in Blender with one short tutorial. One of my favorite learning resources that is helping me a lot to understand the fundamentals of Blender is the "Blender Encyclopedia" that is available on Udemy: 

 

https://www.udemy.com/course/the-blender-encyclopedia/

 

Udemy has flash sales every other week, and right now you can get this course for under 20 bucks. 

 

Cheers,

Wolf3D

Wolf,

 

Well...that is disheartening as I really love your modeling tutorials.  Your explanations are clear and the logical choices you make in approaching a modeling task just resonate with me.  You are right up there with Cerbera, Vector, DasFrodo, etc. and anyone else in my mind who is better than me (and that opens it up PRETTY WIDE so my apologies for forgetting to mention anyone).

 

I did look at that course and it is definitely something to keep an eye on.  Unfortunately, at 25+ hours of instruction that is a bit of time commitment and probably one which I would only be willing to make when I finally decide to leave C4D.

 

Dave

Sorry...but I simply do not have enough faith to be an atheist.

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@3D-Pangel, maybe Blender just wants to be different and it wants to have its own logic. Users usually dont see bigger picture. I found that actually many users of any kind of software often have no clue about the logic behind the software they use. Even after so many years just now Maxon is showing docking capabilities with C4D with its new Asset Manager. But there is so much more C4D UI layout can do which I have showed with U-Render Layout tutorial which really gives you nice way to work with U-Render. We had some interesting feedback where one guy said we I reinvented how to work with C4D mainly because no one even showed this in any tutorial known to me to this day. I was flattered but again, 90% of users will simply not use it because no one else use it like that no matter how much easier it to work with it, with C4D people seems to prefer floating windows which I personally hate and don't understand. So I would say its often what you have learned in process of learning and often you don't experiment because you think there is no other way.

 

With Houdini I had totally different approach of learning it, at least I was willing to try to learn it in a different way which in the end seems to be paying of. I basically watched as many different tutorials from many different people and see what they had to show. Because I knew all of them will have something different to show and  many of them had that one little thing that they are doing differently, so when I started combining all those little things I managed to find my own more efficient way of doing things. That's why after two months of learning it I am able to create procedural models without any problems and every day I am discovering more and more because I actually started to understand the logic behind it. Houdini is so flexible yet different while not hard at all. I would say its hard as any other 3D app when you are starting. We can argue 3D as a topic is hard. People are being afraid for no reasons. Because they often see tons of nodes interconnecting then some coding but they don't realize that often that node list is just a history of your actions and that coding is used mostly for performance gains and more flexibility which in the end you don't have to use if you don't know how to, that can come in later stages once you really start to grasp everything, and there is just few things you really need to understand with Houdini to be able to be efficient. Thing is that all 3D apps are doing this but those things like normals, vectors etc. are hidden. With Houdini bending Normals, Vectors and Attributes are key because they give you so much more flexibility and ways to accomplish things. So understanding Houdini you actually start to understand 3D in much more deeper way. At the beginning can be bit of overwhelming but man, once that switch happens, only sky and your PC is the limit. 😄 Also a great thing is that more an more SideFX tries to remove the hassle of coding so more and more they are providing nodes which can do these more complex things without doing any coding which in the end makes a lot of tasks very easy. There are plenty of things which are easier to do in Houdini than e.g. C4D or Blender. 🙂

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6 hours ago, 3D-Pangel said:

To a certain extent, I agree with everyone.  My main test for whether or not I can work with a program is to spend the first couple of hours working my way through the interface without the benefit (and in complete absence of) any training.  C4D just clicked with me...I could figure it out.  Not so much with modo (the object manager in the early versions was a stumbling block and I have never looked back) and to a lesser extent the same with Blender.   

 

Now, with that said, I am still finding out smarter ways to work with C4D after 16 years.  There are elements of the UI that make me wonder why I didn't find that years ago.  The answer to that is simply that you fall into a methodology and keep to it out of habit.  So I think that comments to people's initial exposure to Blender are just as valid as expert's criticism of the interface.  All is good feedback.

 

But if I may add something --- from watching the Blender tutorials, there is almost this "pride" over being able to navigate through the bumps in the Blender UI and/or workflow.  Which makes me wonder if that pride suppresses complaints and therefore creates a status quo that people do not dare challenge.  I mean, why can't primitives remain parametric until the user decides to make them editable?  That should be an easy fix.  I hear some complaints about it but the response on the forums from Blender "gods"  is almost like "How dare you question our culture -- Shame on you for bringing it up!".  This is an over-exaggeration, but you get the point.  These guys are the experts!  They are the publicly recognized power users.  They have a voice but they don't support the person raising the issue....they just explain it away with something along the lines of "Hey, this is Blender and it has always been that way".   To me that is complacency from people who could make a difference as I would imagine they have close ties to the development community.   The fact that they can't explain why it is not being addressed implies they have accepted rather than raised the issue.  That complacency to accept things that could be changed is never good.   

 

Now in contrast, users bringing up long standing complaints over C4D don't get shamed for bringing it up but the response from the C4D gods  is usually a disappointing "Yeah....brought this up 5 versions ago and on every revision since then.  I have no idea what the developers are doing".  Hey, at least they are trying.

 

Dave

 

Yeah, unfortunately the Blender community is (in some ways) pretty elitist. They often remind me of the stereotypical Linux user, lol. Telling you how great Linux is and basically calling you dumb for still using Windows because Linux is just sooo much better and free and yaddayadda.

Good on you mate lol, but I don't feel like spending weeks learning an operating system that should just run my programs.

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6 hours ago, 3D-Pangel said:

To a certain extent, I agree with everyone.  My main test for whether or not I can work with a program is to spend the first couple of hours working my way through the interface without the benefit (and in complete absence of) any training.  C4D just clicked with me...I could figure it out.  Not so much with modo (the object manager in the early versions was a stumbling block and I have never looked back) and to a lesser extent the same with Blender.   

 

Now, with that said, I am still finding out smarter ways to work with C4D after 16 years.  There are elements of the UI that make me wonder why I didn't find that years ago.  The answer to that is simply that you fall into a methodology and keep to it out of habit.  So I think that comments to people's initial exposure to Blender are just as valid as expert's criticism of the interface.  All is good feedback.

 

But if I may add something --- from watching the Blender tutorials, there is almost this "pride" over being able to navigate through the bumps in the Blender UI and/or workflow.  Which makes me wonder if that pride suppresses complaints and therefore creates a status quo that people do not dare challenge.  I mean, why can't primitives remain parametric until the user decides to make them editable?  That should be an easy fix.  I hear some complaints about it but the response on the forums from Blender "gods"  is almost like "How dare you question our culture -- Shame on you for bringing it up!".  This is an over-exaggeration, but you get the point.  These guys are the experts!  They are the publicly recognized power users.  They have a voice but they don't support the person raising the issue....they just explain it away with something along the lines of "Hey, this is Blender and it has always been that way".   To me that is complacency from people who could make a difference as I would imagine they have close ties to the development community.   The fact that they can't explain why it is not being addressed implies they have accepted rather than raised the issue.  That complacency to accept things that could be changed is never good.   

 

Now in contrast, users bringing up long standing complaints over C4D don't get shamed for bringing it up but the response from the C4D gods  is usually a disappointing "Yeah....brought this up 5 versions ago and on every revision since then.  I have no idea what the developers are doing".  Hey, at least they are trying.

 

Dave

So they're like Mac users. 😜

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15 hours ago, 3D-Pangel said:

Wolf,

 

Well...that is disheartening as I really love your modeling tutorials.  Your explanations are clear and the logical choices you make in approaching a modeling task just resonate with me.  You are right up there with Cerbera, Vector, DasFrodo, etc. and anyone else in my mind who is better than me (and that opens it up PRETTY WIDE so my apologies for forgetting to mention anyone).

 

I did look at that course and it is definitely something to keep an eye on.  Unfortunately, at 25+ hours of instruction that is a bit of time commitment and probably one which I would only be willing to make when I finally decide to leave C4D.

 

Dave

Unfortunately, even if I wanted to, I just don't have the time to work with both programs. Right now I want to focus on Blender in order to learn as much as I can as soon as I can. Also, re C4D tutorials:  more and more they're a waste of time for me anyway. The audience is shrinking by the minute. Even here in the forum there's hardly any real discussions/questions regarding modeling anymore. R18 is becoming outdated, too. Before too long, no one's going to want to see those videos anymore anyway. 

 

If you don't really want to take a closer look at Blender, then don't waste your time. I tend to test the interface and the look and feel of programs, too, but without making an effort to dive a little deeper into it and learn how it works, it's only so helpful. 

 

Things like the interface are not that important to me anyway. A long time ago I tried Hexagon, TrueSpace, and Modo, among others. I actually liked Hexagon and Modo, but because of stability issues it was impossible for me to work with them. TrueSpace was even worse. It was really frustrating. Stability, pricing, user base, available learning resources, development of the software, third party plugins to compensate for the weaknesses of a software package are what's important to me. What isn't is what brand name is printed on the package or whether or not the GUI of software X is prettier than that of software Y. 

 

There's arrogance both in the Blender and C4D community (fortunately, not in this forum). Generally, there's too much talk everyhwere about this program vs. that program. Why do people get so worked up about that? Software is a tool, and a means to an end, and not a religion. I don't get all those discussions out there, they're pointless and a waste of time. 

 

A lot of us are using more than one application as it is, and we all have our reasons why we do that, or why we switch from one package to another. At the end of the day it's all about what you want to do, what you can afford, what you're willing to spend, it's about your work, it's about having fun. Even Blender is not completely free if you're serious about learning it or making things work for you. You learn much faster if invest some money in training, and make your work more efficient and versatile if you invest some more money in third party plugins.

 

What I find a big turn-off in Blender actually is Blender tutorials. That's one thing that kept me from taking a closer look at Blender for a while. People speed-talking and throwing 20 abstract shortcust in your face in under 10 seconds and calling it a tutorial. Sometimes I think it is not so much the fact that Blender is indeed different and more complicated to learn than other 3D applications, but rather the way a lot of people teach Blender that makes it a lot harder for the average Joe to learn it. Especially if you're completely new to 3D. By comparison, C4D tutorials, both free and commercial, tend to be a lot better and easier to understand. 

 

I totally agree with Igor. I am taking a different approach to learning Blender, too, that is not necessarily based on how other people do it. Recently I saw a video on YouTube by a guy who uses it in a completely different way that is almost entirely based on pie menues instead of shortcuts. He completely changed Blender with a pie menu add-on to adjust it to his needs. And like Igor I am piecing things together from a ton of educational sources, trying to combine things to create my own workflow in Blender. Sure, that isn't super easy or super fast, but I too think it'll pay off in the long run. How you go about learning something is key to learning it. Having a background and some experience helps a lot because you can go about it in a different way and also avoid mistakes that I made when I first started learning 3D. 

 

Cheers,

Wolf3D

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Well said Wolf. But discussions are always a good thing when they are constructive. We can learn a lot from them. Good example is a feedback about 3DS Max, which is a big deal as I will not spend a minute trying it out because all I am hearing is how bad it is. I hope in near future we will start sharing work done in other 3D apps and try to learn more and more about what other packages have to offer. I am trying to do that with Houdini and will keep trying. 🙂 I think in the end everyone is benefiting from it, as I learned being caged in one bubble is not a good thing. Checking out what's on the other side  time to time can be beneficial to you as an artist. Also knowing what others app can do can teach you what yours cannot and keep you in check and informed.  

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Not sure it's entirely fair to say that there are less modelling questions / discussions here recently - I have certainly had things to answer on a daily basis, and the forum has been generally a bit quieter recently, presumably because of 'holiday season' and our recent domain name change. Meanwhile I have more modelling students than I have ever had, and a decent flow of constant modelling work for use in Cinema pipelines, so I can't quite share the opinion that this is a sinking ship - I genuinely don't think it is, and as much as I admire Blender, and understand people's reasons for learning it additionally, or outright defecting to it, I am not as pessimistic about the future of modelling in Cinema as others seems to be. The modelling toolset has continued to improve with almost every version after R18, and speaking as someone who uses it all day every day for client work, it remains 'up to the task' in my book - sure, there are still gaps in the toolset remaining, but those gaps do get smaller, and so far they are nothing like large enough to make me consider the full jump to something else. The focus might be more on procedural workflows at the moment, but I remain hopeful and relatively confident that regular modelling / development has not stopped and the importance of traditional modelling workflows is not forgotten as it moves forward.

 

Having said that of course I do see the wisdom of keeping abreast of what the others are doing, Blender and Houdini most of all, and I will watch this and all the other Blender threads with ongoing interest.

 

CBR

 

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On 6/19/2021 at 1:26 PM, MJV said:

So they're like Mac users. 😜

Which you, as a Windows user, are of course superior to. 

 

We've now gone 360. Rock, Paper, Scissors.

 

LOL. Haven't we seen enough platform and app wars and all manner of online wars to notice: we ALL think we are right, smarter AND more humble about it. Of course in my case...I really truly am!  Especially the humility part. 😉

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On 6/18/2021 at 10:01 PM, anuser said:

The main reason why Blender development looks fast is because they just keep adding half baked features. They rarely finish or polish features. Just keep adding it.

It's hard for me to think of features that the Blender Foundation *isn't* polishing: Eevee, Cycles, the Outliner, UVs, modeling, Booleans, Grease Pencil, etc etc. It's hard to think of areas which haven't had multiple recent refinements.

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To expand on the earlier discussion how for example studios contribute back to the community and Blender's development:

 

Ubisoft switched to Blender for their upcoming feature-length TV animation. It is an interesting insight in their workflow.

 

More importantly, the studio developed a real-time collaboration tool called 'Mixer' which allows artists to remotely work simultaneously in real-time on a scene! They made that available to the community.

 

https://www.blender.org/user-stories/blender-and-the-rabbids/?utm_source=www-homepage

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