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Cinema 4D Indie version - What's your opinion about this?


Cinema 4D Indie version  

77 members have voted

  1. 1. Should there be a C4D Indie version?

    • Yes, Cinema 4D is too expensive compared to other packages and I've switched to another package or I am planning to do so.
      43
    • Yes, Cinema 4D is too expensive compared to other packages but I'm not planning to switch to another package.
      26
    • No, Cinema 4D is not too expensive and there's no need for a Indie version.
      4
    • I'm not sure about this / I don't care.
      4


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There's such a big world of 3d out there.

 

Blender, Houdini Indie, UnReal, glTF...and because I've had decades of experience in interactive web stuff, I've started to get curious in Three.js. (I learned fair bit of javascript this past year)

 

For anyone curious: https://threejs.org/

 

I'll still use R20 as long as it functions, but I'm not losing sleep over MAXON and it's decisions.

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Why is it that Houdini, 3ds Max and Maya all have very affordable and powerful indie versions and C4d does not?   When I purchased c4D studio (R17) it came with two years of MSA free. So I p

I'm in the first camp, have already switched to Blender. I used to teach Cinema 4D and now I teach Blender, mainly to beginners. MAXON is completely overlooking that group of people, they have nothing

What is really scary is that Greyscale Gorilla is now going the 100% subscription route.  All perpetual license sales are ending.  As an owner of their plugins (Signal and GorillaCam) they will only s

I have read answers in this thread on a regular base when they got posted ... but I actually never noticed there was a poll available.

For me personally none of the possible poll options apply.

An Indie version would definitely have been welcome when I started out, back in the days with version 9.

That would also mean the upgrade or MSA would consequently have costed less.

 

Although I am not holding my breath for MAXON to decide and release an Indie version.

And honestly, I am not sure I would be tempted in one ... especially these days. I am glad they released R20, but whatever has come after that was just ****, considering its price tag.

Sure, nice new features have been added all along. But the general feel of the application has been lost on me.

 

They're currently at R23, and probably S24 will soon see the day. But that doesn't make my R20 obsolete.

I also have a perpetual license for R21, but each time I start up that version it makes me sick, due to all the baggage that version carries along in terms of bad memories, bad user-experience, and what not.

I enjoy the user-experience of pre R21 versions and, don't feel the need to learn a different application ... as long as I can keep my R20 running.

 

At the current upgrade price for a perpetual license I am more inclined to jump ship then to upgrade.

And since I will never subscribe, an Indie version might be a possible teaser to keep me upgrading to future versions.

But I am pretty sure we'll never see one being released.

 

So, I guess my vote would be:

yes, Cinema4D is too expensive, but I haven't switched, but I don't care as I am staying at R20

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On 3/19/2021 at 9:26 AM, Jops said:

Jup in every possible way perpetual is deprived. it is obvious where things are going 😞

Well....by deprived do you mean loss of Cineversity?  True that hurt but let me ask you this, how many improvements have they made to Advanced Render since MAXON purchased Redshift in 2019?  I think there is more user manipulation going on than just withholding Cineversity.

 

I think the perfect world for MAXON is that every users moves over to a subscription for ALL their products.  That is why they came out with MAXON One.  All the incentives are moving in that direction with negative incentives (eg. removal of Cineversity, big price increases) for people who choose a different path (eg. perpetual licenses).

 

People are willing to play along with this plan as long as these programs continue to improve with each release either with more features and/or increased stability or power (eg. more object handling, better viewport performance, etc).  People intrinsically want to see that they are getting something for their money beyond simply being able to use the program.

 

But what NO ONE thinks about is that at some point in the future, the pace of development will slow down as the programs mature.  Then the subscription user begins to ask the questions like "why am I paying $X a year just to use a program this is not improving".  I think Adobe users will resonate with this opinion as they have been making these complaints for quite some time now. Unfortunately, Adobe stock continues to rise despite these complaints  so while they may be winning financially their user base is extremely upset and complaining as they feel trapped.

 

That is the long term price you are paying for your subscription licenses today.  They seem like a great deal now but at some point you will feel the trap of having to continually pay for something you do  not feel justifies the cost.

 

Dave

Sorry...but I simply do not have enough faith to be an atheist.

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1 hour ago, 3D-Pangel said:

Well....by deprived do you mean loss of Cineversity? 

I meant all of what you are writing about. 

Offering an additional subscription is absolutely sensible and necessary, but offering a perpetual licence at these conditions is obviously just an attempt to create a softer transition in order to have a "legitimate" reason to offer subscriptions only. Unfortunately, this will work, and Adobe proves that you can be successful in the medium term despite alienating your user base. I can see the attempt to move away from Adobe in many places, but it's a slow process. I am not renting my musical instruments, therefore I dont have to pay anyone if I want to play my own songs, or work on them. I have the feeling that the designers have lost their artistic honour when they let something like this happen to them, or I'm looking at it the wrong way and 3D has just become a work that is not bound to personal artistic skills but is just regular work that can be executed by anyone.

 

But as I sad. It will work and even though I don't want this to be forced on me I will then have to decide to leave the software I work with for 20 years and that I love or let myself lock into a never ending dependence.

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What is really scary is that Greyscale Gorilla is now going the 100% subscription route.  All perpetual license sales are ending.  As an owner of their plugins (Signal and GorillaCam) they will only support perpetual users through the next release of C4D.  If I want their plugins to work in a version of C4D after that, I have to purchase their entire subscription service for $400/year. 

 

Honestly...that is outrageous.  I always appreciated their tutorials and what they did for the community but now they are as evil as Adobe (IMHO).   I personally hope GSG fails at this venture and realizes that a good portion of their market is filled with people who reject all forms of subscriptions or who use C4D subscriptions begrudgingly.  Even if you are forced into C4D subscriptions, you do have a choice for their plugins, libraries and tutorials.  GSG is NOT the only game in town in those areas.  So I want them to fail because imagine if EVERY plugin developer, tutorial maker, or library developer went to a subscription model?  How much are you willing to pay EACH year for access to HDRI images you may not even be using on a regular basis?

 

Overall...ridiculous and down right greedy.   They are dead to me.

 

The best part of GSG was Chris Schmidt so I am very glad he left GSG and is now running his own show at RocketLasso.

 

...and now a short plug for RocketLasso (Disclosure:  I am not an affiliated with RocketLasso, Chris Schmidt or anyone who works with RocketLasso)

 

Great site....clear well thought-out instruction.   Chris simply is a great teacher.  Yes...it tends to be a little heavy on the MoGraph side, but EVERYTHING you learn is ALWAYS very practical that can be applied to ANYTHING.  Chris also personally responds to email (having contacted him relative to some Xpresso courses).  He is extremely knowledgeable in just about all the areas of C4D.  Definitely a site worth checking out. Plus RocketLasso is starting to make plugins (Recall seems very cool).

 

Dave

Sorry...but I simply do not have enough faith to be an atheist.

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On 3/27/2021 at 10:02 PM, 3D-Pangel said:

What is really scary is that Greyscale Gorilla is now going the 100% subscription route.  All perpetual license sales are ending.  As an owner of their plugins (Signal and GorillaCam) they will only support perpetual users through the next release of C4D.  If I want their plugins to work in a version of C4D after that, I have to purchase their entire subscription service for $400/year. 

 

Honestly...that is outrageous.  I always appreciated their tutorials and what they did for the community but now they are as evil as Adobe (IMHO).   I personally hope GSG fails at this venture and realizes that a good portion of their market is filled with people who reject all forms of subscriptions or who use C4D subscriptions begrudgingly.  Even if you are forced into C4D subscriptions, you do have a choice for their plugins, libraries and tutorials.  GSG is NOT the only game in town in those areas.  So I want them to fail because imagine if EVERY plugin developer, tutorial maker, or library developer went to a subscription model?  How much are you willing to pay EACH year for access to HDRI images you may not even be using on a regular basis?

 

Overall...ridiculous and down right greedy.   They are dead to me.

 

The best part of GSG was Chris Schmidt so I am very glad he left GSG and is now running his own show at RocketLasso.

 

...and now a short plug for RocketLasso (Disclosure:  I am not an affiliated with RocketLasso, Chris Schmidt or anyone who works with RocketLasso)

 

Great site....clear well thought-out instruction.   Chris simply is a great teacher.  Yes...it tends to be a little heavy on the MoGraph side, but EVERYTHING you learn is ALWAYS very practical that can be applied to ANYTHING.  Chris also personally responds to email (having contacted him relative to some Xpresso courses).  He is extremely knowledgeable in just about all the areas of C4D.  Definitely a site worth checking out. Plus RocketLasso is starting to make plugins (Recall seems very cool).

 

Dave

 

LMAO what? Are you saying they're ending sales / rents of single plugins and only rent out the entire package?

Wow, I mean the GSG guys were always kind of fishy to me (Chris Schmidt excluded but he ran already a while ago, I'm not surprised) but this is ... yeah.

 

I hope they fall flat with that tactic. Subscription everywhere is already bad enough but now the plugin providers start out as well.

 

EDIT: Just looked it up, 50$ a month if you go monthly. I think they're overstretching the value of their content juuuuuuuuust a bit here.

Visit my Portfolio on Artstation.com & Follow me on Instagram

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On 3/28/2021 at 2:38 PM, DasFrodo said:

Wow, I mean the GSG guys were always kind of fishy to me (Chris Schmidt excluded but he ran already a while ago, I'm not surprised) but this is ... yeah.

 

I hope they fall flat with that tactic. Subscription everywhere is already bad enough but now the plugin providers start out as well.

 

EDIT: Just looked it up, 50$ a month if you go monthly. I think they're overstretching the value of their content juuuuuuuuust a bit here.

 

100% agree. I get the impression Nick works about 4 hours a week.

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On 3/27/2021 at 10:02 PM, 3D-Pangel said:

... Greyscale Gorilla is now going the 100% subscription route ...

... imagine if EVERY plugin developer, tutorial maker, or library developer went to a subscription model? ...

 

As a former plugin developer the idea of going to a subscription model for my plugins had crossed my mind.

Granted, that idea didn't survive for longer than a blink of an eye, but it still did cross my mind.

Selling plugins is one thing. If you continuously extend the plugins' features and provide your customers with free updates, as I did, you need to rely on some income to justify the costs.

However, if you're making your customer pay for the updates, then these ain't "free updates".

So, I kept to my principles, remained naive and kept most updates free, counting on new customers to finance the cost of improving the plugins.

Until no new customers were left, or at least not enough to justify the cost of running a business.

 

Now, I am not defending, nor justifying those who went subscription.

Just saying that there usual is another side to the story.

That said, I am pro perpetual and against subscription.

I am also wondering what this patreon-thing is all about? To me that's just another subscription model. Or am I missing something?

 

On the other hand ... I don't quite see what this subscription-talk has anything to do with the original topic regarding an Indie version?

 

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55 minutes ago, dast said:

As a former plugin developer the idea of going to a subscription model for my plugins had crossed my mind.

Granted, that idea didn't survive for longer than a blink of an eye, but it still did cross my mind.

Selling plugins is one thing. If you continuously extend the plugins' features and provide your customers with free updates, as I did, you need to rely on some income to justify the costs.

However, if you're making your customer pay for the updates, then these ain't "free updates".

So, I kept to my principles, remained naive and kept most updates free, counting on new customers to finance the cost of improving the plugins.

Until no new customers were left, or at least not enough to justify the cost of running a business.

This is why I am a big fan of the maintenance model. It's kind of a subscription, but not really. It's closer to rent to own, but better. If I want a software, I can have it, get some updates and after that I can keep it and decide whether I want to get further updates or not.

 

I totally understand the decision behind going subscription but the fact that 99% are not rent to own is my biggest issue, and the lack of perpetuals altogether if you don't like subscriptions.

 

Quote

On the other hand ... I don't quite see what this subscription-talk has anything to do with the original topic regarding an Indie version?

 

Yep you're right, we should get back to topic 😉

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On 3/28/2021 at 8:59 PM, Icecaveman said:

 

100% agree. I get the impression Chris works about 4 hours a week.

Edit: A response to a typo!

 

Interesting topic when it comes to the indie model, as it's the world that's changed about the software. Wonder if that leads to a race to the bottom/cheapest as has happened to so many things. Especially as MAXON has a totally free student version. Make me think of video game industry and how they haven't properly increased prices in decades even though the complexity/cost to make them has skyrocketed. Leading to loot boxes, micro transactions, and incomplete games that then have paid DLC.

Edited by ChrisSchmidt
Was responding to a typo that got corrected.
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2 hours ago, ChrisSchmidt said:

Did I accidently kick your puppy in a past life or something? Your 'impression' is so wrong as to be amusing. As a newer business I are spending extra hours working. I spend a huge proportion of my time each week focused on totally free content, live streams answering questions from the broader community every week, and researching/recording/editing totally free tutorials, and answering random C4D questions from people who ask. All while we're developing plugins behind the scenes that we spend WAY too much time trying to meet crazy high standards instead of easy cash grabs. Is every word you type as equally wrong and ill informed?

 

Interesting topic when it comes to the indie model, as it's the world that's changed about the software. Wonder if that leads to a race to the bottom/cheapest as has happened to so many things. Especially as MAXON has a totally free student version. Make me think of video game industry and how they haven't properly increased prices in decades even though the complexity/cost to make them has skyrocketed. Leading to loot boxes, micro transactions, and incomplete games that then have paid DLC.

I thought I edited my post. It was Nick that I think only works 4 hours a week! I'd never dream of doubting your hard work! You created all the plugins for GSG and you and Chad were busy with tutorials. Nick's work seemed limited to the rare mail-it-in tutorial and "business development."

 

I'll bet that you are too much the gentleman to confirm my suspicion. And I'd also bet  that you and Chad have laughed about how little Nick does.

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6 hours ago, Icecaveman said:

I thought I edited my post. It was Nick that I think only works 4 hours a week! I'd never dream of doubting your hard work! You created all the plugins for GSG and you and Chad were busy with tutorials. Nick's work seemed limited to the rare mail-it-in tutorial and "business development."

 

I'll bet that you are too much the gentleman to confirm my suspicion. And I'd also bet  that you and Chad have laughed about how little Nick does.

 

Anyone that runs a business is working 24/7 365 days of the year

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