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R25 Expectations


Guest Igor

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3 hours ago, hvanderwegen said:

For development I use Git / GitLab, but that just doesn't work well for visual/art projects.

If you’re  already familiar with git workflows then you could also take a look at achorpoint. Also made by a ex MAXON employee.

 

https://www.anchorpoint.app

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11 hours ago, jackTheStorm said:

 

Hello Kent. Thank you for INFO

Yes, that's reason named which stops me to write about hybrid XPR and Neutron, no more words. XPRESSO was child of S.Rath as remember.

Let's transfer to Scene Nodes.

While Sebastian did a lot to support Xpresso, it was developed by someone who left Maxon shortly after for health reasons. 

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5 hours ago, kbar said:

Also made by a ex MAXON employee.

Actually, two of them. 😉

 

5 hours ago, hvanderwegen said:

How is it that I missed these? Thanks again!

Not sure, Ive been promoting them for more than a month and they also have a blog article here. 🙂

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On 7/12/2021 at 12:28 AM, hikarubr said:

 

I don't think anyone questions that you can do in Scene Nodes everything you can do in Xpresso. The main point is that Scene Nodes is much more complex than Xpresso, you need much more steps in SceneNodes than in Xpresso. For programmers that's fine, for 3D artists, not so much. 

 

I understand the general sentiment, but can you be more specific with an example? Please bear in mind that if you want to create an object in Scene nodes you do that in node system and you get that object as a node, where Xpresso acts on object in object manager. Creation of object in object manager, dragging it into xpresso window is also a step user has to take. It seems to me that only tangible concern I managed to read out is about component access in scene nodes...?

 

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The answer to the question is extremely simple. 

 

A perpetual product by definition is you get what you buy at that moment in time.  A subscription by definition allows us to continue to deliver improvements.

 

With perpetual you get the asset browser and assets that we ship with the perpetual release.  With a subscription we can decide to deliver additional assets over time.

 

Cheers

Dave 

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1 hour ago, hikarubr said:

A good example of the complexity gap between Xpresso and Scene Nodes was already posted in this thread. Please go back to page 3 and see the Scene Nodes example posted by @MODODO and then the Xpresso posted by @imashination . The Xpresso example is not only simpler (2 nodes vs 6 nodes) but it's also very straight forward to understand. The Scene Nodes example only makes sense if you have some basic knowledge of programming and know what a matrix is. Most 3D artists don't, specially the ones that have chosen C4D for being more artistic friendly than Maya or Houdini. 

 

I have to say that I'm kind puzzled that people from Maxon cannot see how much more complex Scene Nodes is than Xpresso. But on the other hand, this explain some weird Maxon choices in the last few years, such as the very un-C4D reflectance channel (which destroyed one of the most elegant basic materials in the industry and made the basic C4D material more complex than anything in Maya).

 

And again, I'd like to repeat that I think Scene Nodes are great and they look very powerful. But it will be a mistake to get rid of Xpresso for something way more complex. It's like the reflectance channel error again but affecting a much more serious part of C4D (the reflectance debacle had less of an impact because everyone switched to Octane or Redshift. But there isn't any third party alternatives for Xpresso)

My limited understanding of scene nodes is that Maxon or any 3rd party developer can create assets that offer the same simplicity and functionality found in xpresso. So in the example of the two node process vs the 6 node process from page 3, the two nodes in the xpresso example could be recreated as scene node assets, with the user never having to touch or understand the underlying nodes. The diffence then is that unlike with xpresso nodes, whose functionality cannot in any way be changed, the user if so inclined can dive into the scene node assets and actually change or improve their behavior depending on circumstances. The same theory will apply to all areas of Cinema, which Maxon is in the process of rebuilding from scratch. The theory goes that the end user will be able to have the same easy user experience as now, but will also have the ability to dive into the node structure of any object, operator, or function for greater control if needed or desired. And it will all be way faster than currently possible. The question is not whether Maxon can technically achieve this goal, but rather if users are willing to stick with them for the years it will likely require. Personally, I regard R20 as the last version of Cinema 4D as we knew and loved, and everything that comes after as its successor. 

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Thanks for the input!

Scene nodes have to be more complex by definition. To illustrate the point, you have Objects, MoGraph and Xpresso currently which gives you some separation. In nodes they are all contained within unified environment with scene manager as abstraction of it. I understand the set driver / driven argument but that is solvable with UI change where subchannels become accessible on node.  I was wondering if there are any other examples so we can check them out while there is a lot of room for changes and improvement 🙂

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I fear there is a bit of a hangup on some important but minor difference in the handling of composite  data,  while it is a difference between Scene Nodes and Xpresso it is not a functionally or systematically relevant one, but a minor issue that i think will be resolved over time.

The real differences are in how they both work.
Xpresso is mainly used to control the current state of objects based on previous states and some user added logic. For that it is called an expression system, because it creates dependencies by applying expressions. These expressions can not create objects or geometry, they can only reference and control existing objects, though TP is actually an exception from this rule.

Scene nodes on the other hand usually live in a single frame, to make them dependent on previous states you need to employ extra measures like the memory node. Creating things however is at the very heart of scene nodes and they can also directly manipulate the created information, something xpresso does only in a very limited way.

 

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These are two setups that should make the difference clearer. The Xpresso setup is something that you actually can not create in scene nodes in this way currently. You can create something that gives a similar effect, but not the exact thing.

The scene node example on the other hand can not be replicated within Xpresso, since it includes the creation of new geometry. Even with TP you would not be able to replicate this since you would still need a single original cube from outside of the node system.

SceneNodesOnly.PNG

XpressoOnly.PNG

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