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Cinema R25 Release


Guest Igor

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@FLima I have considered the subscription route, but it is not for me in any sort of long term way because I may not always be doing this for a living, and as a hobbyist I'd find it difficult to stomach handing over 700 quid every year for software that will stop functioning the moment I stop paying. Nope - perpetuals are the way to go for me, and I very much hope Maxon continue to offer them.

 

CBR

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Many companies will accept to just pay a rent for a software that is nice to work with for Mograph. Of course any growth is stifled, but that seems is the objective regardless since C4D do not even have a proper render engine.

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Not having a native renderer would be fine if Maxon decided to charge a little less for C4D as a result, because then people that don't use the built in renderer can save a little by not having to pay for one, but that's of course not what has happened. Letting your render engine die a slow death of neglect but keeping the same price is just, idk, it seems super arrogant. 

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1 hour ago, MJV said:

.. but keeping the same price is just, idk, it seems super arrogant

We must learn that in the raw business world, there are no such things as "faithful customers", "arrogance", "honesty", "decency" - we just have business.
Moving to the subscription model is a sign of
a) Panic, sales are plummeting or
b) The need to hide what I call feature maturity, the saturation of nifty features or
c) A messed up roadmap which stems from trying to chew more than a mouthful at one time or
d) Plain financial calculations that tell the company that this is the most profitable way to go
In Maxon's case it is one one these factors, or most likely, a combination of them.

-Ingvar
 

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Another few years for all the big features to come in is fine and seems about right. And since the really disaffected users who were unhappily waiting tell us that they have  jumped to Blender, and are now happily using that software, not too many people will be bothered by this. 
 

Next year will be cool with a beefy S26 and an excellent R27.
 

 

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3 hours ago, ingvarai said:

We must learn that in the raw business world, there are no such things as "faithful customers", "arrogance", "honesty", "decency" - we just have business.
Moving to the subscription model is a sign of
a) Panic, sales are plummeting or
b) The need to hide what I call feature maturity, the saturation of nifty features or
c) A messed up roadmap which stems from trying to chew more than a mouthful at one time or
d) Plain financial calculations that tell the company that this is the most profitable way to go
In Maxon's case it is one one these factors, or most likely, a combination of them.

-Ingvar
 

Yes, I completely agree. Thus I wrote "seems" but in fact I know very well that in the end it's a business decision and really matters not how it seems, unless it ultimately impacts sales in a negative way. 

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Just observing too, now that I've noticed. Blender 2.8, the big redesigned version that everyone was apparently thrilled about at the time, was released in mid 2019, two years ago.

 

Another seven big Blender versions have followed, (2.81, 2.82 etc) with heaps of new features and polishes and additions and lots of cool stuff.  The high profile dudes who jumped to Blender (around when R21 came out or thereabouts) have therefore had a couple of years of receiving heaps of features and  cool modern 3D tech with their software of choice, all for free.

 

So you just have to observe - the ex C4D dudes who are posting in this thread, who have vocally jumped to Blender, and who are still irate. Do they seem happy and satisfied with their lot? Nah. They don't. Or some of them don't, at any rate. In fact, I'm not sure if I've seen grumpier posters on a forum on the internet.  (I'm not referring to the chilled out bunch here who are posting calmly btw. Thank you to everyone contributing in a nice way to this discussion).

 

This confirms to me that there is nothing Maxon could have done which would have satisfied the unhappy dudes who keep telling us how sad they are. If they're not happy receiving those two years of features for free from Blender, I'm not sure how receiving exactly the same features and updates over the same period from Maxon - but being charged for them, rather than getting them for free - would have made them happier.

 

This suggests Maxon is right to go their own way, take their time, do their thing. Because they could have upped the feature releases and given them out for free, and some people still wouldn't be happy.

 

If the angry folks here think they would have been happier if Maxon had done exactly that, they should explain why they're so miserable after two years of Blender doing it.

 

My guess - some of the people who jumped ship never really jumped, and they keep on hanging around and checking in, because deep down they hope to return, probably because they know Maxon polishes stuff a bit better than the freeware folks do.

 

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There many kind of 3D users. Some are more social, eventual tribal while others are utilitarian and do not care what they use as long as it fits for the job. 

If you check, the most disappointed users are those they preached Cinema 4D to everyone while ago, they were invested in software not only as simple tool but as a somewhat extension of their identity.

This also intersect with what kind of artists and professional we are and if we even like to do 3D. Some might like to do 3D for the results they can achieve but not for the journey of clicking buttons and working with the software- i am a bit like that - while others really like to work with software.  For me i like much more to draw than to work with 3D - only the fluidity of using Sketchup gave me pleasure , i am sure if  i had a haptic interface to model i might enjoy it too- Nevertheless i feel realised when i achieve some good 3d simulation, or i have some work in public : commercials, projection shows, architecture presentations, these last ones as long as it was not routine.

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6 hours ago, BoganTW said:

Just observing too, now that I've noticed. Blender 2.8, the big redesigned version that everyone was apparently thrilled about at the time, was released in mid 2019, two years ago.

 

Another seven big Blender versions have followed, (2.81, 2.82 etc) with heaps of new features and polishes and additions and lots of cool stuff.  The high profile dudes who jumped to Blender (around when R21 came out or thereabouts) have therefore had a couple of years of receiving heaps of features and  cool modern 3D tech with their software of choice, all for free.

 

So you just have to observe - the ex C4D dudes who are posting in this thread, who have vocally jumped to Blender, and who are still irate. Do they seem happy and satisfied with their lot? Nah. They don't. Or some of them don't, at any rate. In fact, I'm not sure if I've seen grumpier posters on a forum on the internet.  (I'm not referring to the chilled out bunch here who are posting calmly btw. Thank you to everyone contributing in a nice way to this discussion).

 

This confirms to me that there is nothing Maxon could have done which would have satisfied the unhappy dudes who keep telling us how sad they are. If they're not happy receiving those two years of features for free from Blender, I'm not sure how receiving exactly the same features and updates over the same period from Maxon - but being charged for them, rather than getting them for free - would have made them happier.

 

This suggests Maxon is right to go their own way, take their time, do their thing. Because they could have upped the feature releases and given them out for free, and some people still wouldn't be happy.

 

If the angry folks here think they would have been happier if Maxon had done exactly that, they should explain why they're so miserable after two years of Blender doing it.

 

My guess - some of the people who jumped ship never really jumped, and they keep on hanging around and checking in, because deep down they hope to return, probably because they know Maxon polishes stuff a bit better than the freeware folks do.

 

 

Can you tell me what you're smoking so I can avoid it?

 

I don't know where you're reading stuff like this, but in my experience Blender Users are generally very happy and very outspoken when it comes to telling people how awesome Blender is, which can even be annoying at times. Kind of like this dude that always recommends you to use Linux when you complain about a minor issue in Windows.

 

On top of that, you just cannot compare open source with software as expensive as C4D. People that pay for C4D have a right to complain on a reasonable level. Sure, so do Blender users, but in the end they're using something they got for free.

 

Overall people will always complain, even if they literally have the perfect software at their hands.

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7 hours ago, BoganTW said:

Just observing too, now that I've noticed. Blender 2.8, the big redesigned version that everyone was apparently thrilled about at the time, was released in mid 2019, two years ago.

 

Another seven big Blender versions have followed, (2.81, 2.82 etc) with heaps of new features and polishes and additions and lots of cool stuff.  The high profile dudes who jumped to Blender (around when R21 came out or thereabouts) have therefore had a couple of years of receiving heaps of features and  cool modern 3D tech with their software of choice, all for free.

 

So you just have to observe - the ex C4D dudes who are posting in this thread, who have vocally jumped to Blender, and who are still irate. Do they seem happy and satisfied with their lot? Nah. They don't. Or some of them don't, at any rate. In fact, I'm not sure if I've seen grumpier posters on a forum on the internet.  (I'm not referring to the chilled out bunch here who are posting calmly btw. Thank you to everyone contributing in a nice way to this discussion).

 

This confirms to me that there is nothing Maxon could have done which would have satisfied the unhappy dudes who keep telling us how sad they are. If they're not happy receiving those two years of features for free from Blender, I'm not sure how receiving exactly the same features and updates over the same period from Maxon - but being charged for them, rather than getting them for free - would have made them happier.

 

This suggests Maxon is right to go their own way, take their time, do their thing. Because they could have upped the feature releases and given them out for free, and some people still wouldn't be happy.

 

If the angry folks here think they would have been happier if Maxon had done exactly that, they should explain why they're so miserable after two years of Blender doing it.

 

My guess - some of the people who jumped ship never really jumped, and they keep on hanging around and checking in, because deep down they hope to return, probably because they know Maxon polishes stuff a bit better than the freeware folks do.

 

 

That's some wild speculation here. Just because there are a few loud & angry people here who may or may not have "jumped" to Blender doesn't mean you can conclude that Maxon is doing right. ("Right" for a company is proven by the moolah rolling in, anyway, not by random anecdotes on some forum.) Nor would I say there is "nothing" Maxon could have done better just because... what's even your train of thought here?... people should hypothetically be happy about some other software? eh...

 

I don't quite see how people's relationship to some other software applies to C4D, after all, these people did pay for C4D and invested time and effort, which will be lost by "jumping" to any other software (you make it sound so easy... but "jumping" softwares is a lengthy process, especially when you do it on top of still working in the original soft). Also, focusing on Blender here seems to overlook all people switching to Houdini (simulation) or Maya (character animation), which frankly I hear mentioned more often than Blender!

 

As for your final guess, well, your guess is as good as mine, but maybe people would like to stay with C4D because that's what they know and love, and they are still here because they have not finished transitioning and are interested in what Maxon offers? Still using C4D while learning another application is pretty normal I'd say, and staying with C4D because it has some benefits is not uncommon? Either as main app supported by some other(s), or as an app you still use on the side when the business arises. (I'm not commenting on your "polishing" remark because it actually made me laugh.)

 

I would add some armchair CEOing or personal anecdotes but I doubt anybody wants to read that so I rather return to some actual work.

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6 hours ago, Pinin said:

the most disappointed users are those they preached Cinema 4D to everyone while ago, they were invested in software not only as simple tool but as a somewhat extension of their identity.

 

 

I think the most disappointed users are the indie artists.

 

My work is paying for Maxon one, else I wouldn't. At home I ran out of Redshift / Insydium license, and I really would not pay over a thousand dollars for Maxon One plus 500 dollars because my personal license is on last chance with insydium, just to use it at home.

 

Also, because Blender is a fan favorite among many users, I honestly have to say Blender is a great software and is on par with Cinema in many aspects, and modeling wise -with boxcutter / hardops- its ahead of cinema, but overall it cant really compete against Maxon One + Redshift + Insydium ( it just doesn't have anything remotely close to X-particles, FumeFX, Realflow ), Eevee is good enough unless you want accuracy, Cycles is good enough unless you want speed. Third party renders like Redshift or arnold, are not "good enough", are outstanding.

 

X-Cycles / Geometry nodes seems promising but as every other promise in Blender "in the future is gonna beat X / Y / Z"

 

The biggest problem with Maxon is Softimage, they also took their time and eventually Softimage ICE was born and is still one of the best DCC  in the market, well, guess what happens to its userbase? And Im talking about BEFORE Autodesk bought it and EoL. 

 

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1 hour ago, luchifer said:

 

 

 

The biggest problem with Maxon is Softimage, they also took their time and eventually Softimage ICE was born and is still one of the best DCC  in the market, well, guess what happens to its userbase? And Im talking about BEFORE Autodesk bought it and EoL. 

 

 

 

Autodesk then folded the developers into the Naiad developers and came up with Bifrost.  It took years them to develop it to the point where it's at now, and they lost a lot of customers along the way who were waiting for quality of life updates in Maya and weren't delivered.  Bifrost is only now coming into its own but it may be a little too late.  Ironically, they still can't do fracturing and destruction in Bifrost.. years later.. still not there.    Maxon is following the same example.. spending a lot of resources to work on a single HUGE feature while seemingly ignoring other areas which have been stagnant for over 5+ years.   There are some nice updates to R25 with the capsules and presets.  Only time will tell how this plays out and if users get completely discouraged by lack of updates to the base tools they use daily.    I know I'm looking at Houdini 19 which has a lot of promising new features as well as Blender 3.x (less enthused due to poor development delivery and overhype).   I am too one of those indies paying for C4D, Redshift and Insydium at home.  I can't say I'm going to be willing to do that next year when my subs are up, unless something changes and features like particles, sims, etc can get folded in.  Myself along with others have yelled at Maxon to buy Insydium and fold the core of XP into C4D nodes.  I know people are against it.. but look at it this way, if C4D fails, so does Insydium.  Why are people going to pay for Fused when they aren't going to pay for C4D in the future.

 

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