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Cinema R25 Release


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7 hours ago, hvanderwegen said:

@BoganTW, @luchifer

Have you guys taught classes as instructors at schools / colleges / universities before?

In practice it is almost impossible to get students to willingly pay for extra software or books unless the school enforces it.

 

Yes I did, that's why I said "either school pays for it, or kids do". Not sure how is done around the world, In my country -Peru- students pays for materials they are going to use through the year. Its payment in advance, they don't physically punch their own credit cards to Maxon website, they pay to the school for all materials they are gonna use in semester, the school assigns someone on sales / IT / management to buy / install stuff. I'm not sure if its the same as tuition fees in Canada or US, and I'm not even sure if Eula / ToS on student software allows for it. In this particular case, the seat has no name assigned to it, a random student will use it, so no point getting a student using his credit card to pay $3 when he isn't gonna keep it, and no point in making all students pay $3 dollars, that would be a steal from the school side, so I guess in this case, the school has to assume the cost in advance.

 

I teached Maya for a year on a local institute. I cant say as a student if I paid for 3d stuff because back in the old days there wasn't schools teaching 3D in my country, so I had to learn the hard way, by using it at work and buying books. I really don't understand the issue at hand, because as a teacher, you don't find by surprise the software has a cost because usually sales / IT / management are the ones who handles this stuff, so you or your students never realize the hidden costs behind, but like I said at the beginning, I'm not sure how is done around the world.

 

We had 3dsmax before changing Maya, I just talked to school about Maya, showed some cool examples about it and the jobs available around it, I didn't physically installed Maya on every computer on campus, neither did the liaison between Autodesk and the institute I was working at. Someone else did that, if that involved a price, I cant really have a way to tell, they just told me "the software you asked is installed"

 

For elective courses, they even have to bring their own equipment, because school wont pay for it (karategi gear, shoes to play soccer for example)

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50 minutes ago, kmls said:

hmm im still trying set up my layout as before... little bit problematic there is so much white icons and it does hard to recognize them.  i hope devs notices this and will ad icon colorizing option...

 

and as second theme i inspected sclupt features. :d of course no brushes and other improvoments but wait, there is new icons. so i inspected them as a new cool improvoments of sclupt module. i hope new icons will make me great scluttor... but okey put joke to side and lets see what  are new icons.....

 

here i comparement of sclupt icons... reallf i waited some updates on sclupt since maxon acquires forger.... but this is.. i dont know guys but its like very bad joke. some icons one by one same. little bit pixel differencies... really? i just want to ask to devs. you guys why buy forger??? why used icons mimics that much blender icons? why not forger icons???  forger icons already good  and minimaslistic.... omg what a shame... instead of own softwares icons you guys prefer to using icons from blender.....

 

2021-09-17_14-28-00.jpg.90f1fab6441ec3aa4de82b852695cf0c.jpg

This is getting ridiculous, you guys realize Blender didnt invent sculpting icons or gray interface, right?

FireShot Capture 362 - Intro to Maya - Sculpt Tools - Tutorial 8 - YouTube - www.youtube.com.png

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1 hour ago, kmls said:

here i comparement of sclupt icons... reallf i waited some updates on sclupt since maxon acquires forger.... but this is.. i dont know guys but its like very bad joke. some icons one by one same. little bit pixel differencies... really?

 

To be fair, the new Cinema 4D Sculpt icons are based on the previous ones, that weren't modified since R14 in 2012. For R25, they were just simplified.

 

In 2012, Blender still had a text based interface (like the old lightwave). The small icons came later... I don't know exactly, probably in 2017...

 

I think Blender copied first Cinema 4D (or other softwares), then MAXON was inspired by Blender.

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3 minutes ago, EricNS said:

 

To be fair, the new Cinema 4D Sculpt icons are based on the previous ones, that weren't modified since R14 in 2012. For R25, they were just simplified.

 

In 2012, Blender still had a text based interface (like the old lightwave). The small icons came later... I don't know exactly, probably in 2017...

 

I think Blender copied first Cinema 4D (or other softwares), then MAXON was inspired by Blender.

I finally understand why Blender used right click for so long... I guess someone said "everyone uses left click from Minesweeper to Call of Duty : Ultra Modern Warfare 3000"... to avoid saying we copied them, lets go right click people!

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7 hours ago, MazurBr said:

Sorry, but this is ridiculous. You're talking like Maxon were a small new company that needs to build a new system. They are not; they already had a system in place and it worked fine. Until the beginning of this year Cinema 4D's student license worked exactly like Autodesk - just sent them an .edu email and proof of enroment (ID or ttranscript) and you were good to go. There is absolutely no reason for this stupid change.  

 

You're right - for a couple of years we tried to do it ourselves. It did not go well. We had multiple people on staff spending their entire time approving or disapproving student software, and response times were pretty bad. Especially because in many parts of the world everyone is starting school at the same time.

 

At that time, we were only providing students with Cinema 4D. Now we have Maxon One, and have added all the student demand for Redshift and Red Giant software. The old system simply wasn't sustainable, so as Kent suggested we looked to an external company that specializes in this. They charge a small fee, and with the volume of student license requests we process it simply makes the most sense to ask students to cover that. Otherwise we'd need to increase subscription prices for everyone.

 

(and btw those people we had doing verifications before have been reassigned and are much happier now that their job involves more than clicking Approve or Deny)

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, MazurBr said:

Just like when R20 would be the big release and all he wait for the mythical core would finally pay off? 

If I may...and this is all based on giving every courtesy to Maxon that they are NOT out to milk us dry like those bloodsucking leeches at Adobe.

 

Not all development cycles are 1 year or 6 months.  Major feature development can take longer than that.  R26 development did NOT start on 9/16 once R25 was announced.  So there is an overall roadmap and I would imagine it spans a maximum of 5 years as most corporations are not willing to invest further out than that  (any more is risky because markets change).

 

So, I really don't think Rick or anyone else at Maxon said "Yes.  Let's make the UI the big change in R25 along with three other features" and made a conscious choice way back in the planning phase that was all there was going to be in R25.  Pretty confident that more was planned for R25 but something happened.  Developers ran into unforeseen issues, things were unstable, quality of those planned features was sub-standard, etc...etc...etc.  The decision was therefore made to not include them in this release cycle.  That is why I asked Rick "what happened last year".

 

But that does NOT mean they will not appear in the next release.  So R26 will be a little fatter to make up for the thinness of R25 as they get back on track with their development schedule....or so I hope.

 

Where I fault Maxon is that they decided to release R25 rather than wait for all the planned features to be ready.  Their reasoning for doing so: "We wanted to get these features into your hands as fast as possible".  That is reasoning that really only benefit subscribers. It does NOT serve the perpetual license holder.  It appeases the subscriber because they do get the new features earlier with no additional cash outlay.  The perpetual license holder is left with "I am paying $950 for this?" type of feeling and at the same time placing a HUGE bet that everything will actually catch up by the time R27 is released so that the next time  they shell out $950 they are getting a massive update that makes up for everything.

 

Sorry...when you are paying 32% more than a subscriber, you want to see the goods up front.   That is why I kept saying "Why did you release R25 as is?  This makes no sense" because all they did was play into the Adobe fear that they really don't care about keeping C4D relevant and really are just milking a captive audience while giving very little in return.  That is the REAL downside of subscriptions (you are paying just to use rather than paying to get better features) and R25 did nothing to dispel that fear.  It was a bad move.

 

Now, someone mentioned that Maxon was in debt.  Not surprising given all their acquisitions.  Therefore I strongly urge ALL perpetual license holders NOT to upgrade to R25 until you see what is in R26.  You have until R27 is announced to make that decision without incurring additional costs because you are not eligible for R26 anyway....therefore wait. 

 

Does R26 catch up to where R25 should have been or is Maxon really just milking us dry.

 

The only benefit to perpetual licenses is that (unlike the old maintenance programs), time is on your side AFTER the next release has been announced.  If Maxon is hurting for cash, you also send them a signal by waiting:  Sorry....you need to do better before you see my cash.

 

Dave

Sorry...but I simply do not have enough faith to be an atheist.

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19 minutes ago, 3D-Pangel said:

If I may...and this is all based on giving every courtesy to Maxon that they are NOT out to milk us dry like those bloodsucking leeches at Adobe.

 

Not all development cycles are 1 year or 6 months.  Major feature development can take longer than that.  R26 development did NOT start on 9/16 once R25 was announced.  So there is an overall roadmap and I would imagine it spans a maximum of 5 years as most corporations are not willing to invest further out than that  (any more is risky because markets change).

 

So, I really don't think Rick or anyone else at Maxon said "Yes.  Let's make the UI the big change in R25 along with three other features" and made a conscious choice way back in the planning phase that was all there was going to be in R25.  Pretty confident that more was planned for R25 but something happened.  Developers ran into unforeseen issues, things were unstable, quality of those planned features was sub-standard, etc...etc...etc.  The decision was therefore made to not include them in this release cycle.  That is why I asked Rick "what happened last year".

 

But that does NOT mean they will not appear in the next release.  So R26 will be a little fatter to make up for the thinness of R25 as they get back on track with their development schedule....or so I hope.

 

Where I fault Maxon is that they decided to release R25 rather than wait for all the planned features to be ready.  Their reasoning for doing so: "We wanted to get these features into your hands as fast as possible".  That is reasoning that really only benefit subscribers. It does NOT serve the perpetual license holder.  It appeases the subscriber because they do get the new features earlier with no additional cash outlay.  The perpetual license holder is left with "I am paying $950 for this?" type of feeling and at the same time placing a HUGE bet that everything will actually catch up by the time R27 is released so that the next time  they shell out $950 they are getting a massive update that makes up for everything.

 

Sorry...when you are paying 32% more than a subscriber, you want to see the goods up front.   That is why I kept saying "Why did you release R25 as is?  This makes no sense" because all they did was play into the Adobe fear that they really don't care about keeping C4D relevant and really are just milking a captive audience while giving very little in return.  That is the REAL downside of subscriptions (you are paying just to use rather than paying to get better features) and R25 did nothing to dispel that fear.  It was a bad move.

 

Now, someone mentioned that Maxon was in debt.  Not surprising given all their acquisitions.  Therefore I strongly urge ALL perpetual license holders NOT to upgrade to R25 until you see what is in R26.  You have until R27 is announced to make that decision without incurring additional costs because you are not eligible for R26 anyway....therefore wait. 

 

Does R26 catch up to where R25 should have been or is Maxon really just milking us dry.

 

The only benefit to perpetual licenses is that (unlike the old maintenance programs), time is on your side AFTER the next release has been announced.  If Maxon is hurting for cash, you also send them a signal by waiting:  Sorry....you need to do better before you see my cash.

 

Dave

A very good analysis, but unfortunately I wouldn't be to shure about your first sentence.

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22 minutes ago, 3D-Pangel said:

So, I really don't think Rick or anyone else at Maxon said "Yes.  Let's make the UI the big change in R25 along with three other features" and made a conscious choice way back in the planning phase that was all there was going to be in R25.  Pretty confident that more was planned for R25 but something happened.  Developers ran into unforeseen issues, things were unstable, quality of those planned features was sub-standard, etc...etc...etc.  The decision was therefore made to not include them in this release cycle.  That is why I asked Rick "what happened last year"

Couple of points, if perpetuals hold them back, just ditch perpetual plans altogether, because right now it doesnt help perpetuals or subscribers half baked tools. Or ditch subscriptions, whatever works best.

 

Second, if they release unfinished tools -and they did- then why are they charging us for? Does anyone here delivers some unfinished animation yet ask the client to pay for it?

 

Whatever happened, is not the customers fault.

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to elaborate further, we don't need to know what happened, just like -hypothetically speaking- Coca-Cola doesn't need to know why the bear they asked me to do looks like a coyote and its blue. 

 

If I'm not up to the task, I'm not getting paid until I do, and its the same everywhere.

 

Its annoying, and angering they seem proud to deliver unfinished tools.

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I stopped updating C4D around R20. Was using it side by side with Modo for some period of time. Main reason was cause C4D was more expensive to keep up with. So decided to focus more on Modo. Now, looking at releases of both, I must say I would like to see this level of development on Modo side. Just having Redshift is amazing step forward. So exactly what people here, that are complaining, are missing? I watched Rocket Lasso, what is new in R25, and there are few great things I would like to see within Modo. Also to mention I am using C4D for last two months regularly, got job that requires it, and honestly, it is breath of fresh air compared to latest Modo. So smooth workflow, 4k UI support, like color scheme, responsive UI when working on larger scene even with Redshift active, ooh and speed of Redshift. Did not play with Scene Nodes yet, but already see how smarter was developed compared to Modo MeshOps. 

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I think people are over analyzing things. As I see it, Cinema 4D is a service now, and that service is providing software that is always kept up to date and working to the highest standards, a service people will pay for. They don't really want permanent licenses out there, and have therefore priced them out accordingly. I think Maxon has made it pretty clear their roadmap from here on out is all Scene Nodes all the time, until everything currently possible in Cinema is converted to Scene Nodes. So what possible incentive could Maxon have to spend any resources adding or improving features that they are actively working to make obsolete with new and vastly more versatile Scene Node driven features. Cinema 4D is in a rebuilding mode and have been pretty up front about this. It's up to users to decide if the software as offered meets their current needs enough to go along for the ride. 

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44 minutes ago, MJV said:

I think people are over analyzing things. As I see it, Cinema 4D is a service now, and that service is providing software that is always kept up to date and working to the highest standards, a service people will pay for. They don't really want permanent licenses out there, and have therefore priced them out accordingly. I think Maxon has made it pretty clear their roadmap from here on out is all Scene Nodes all the time, until everything currently possible in Cinema is converted to Scene Nodes. So what possible incentive could Maxon have to spend any resources adding or improving features that they are actively working to make obsolete with new and vastly more versatile Scene Node driven features. Cinema 4D is in a rebuilding mode and have been pretty up front about this. It's up to users to decide if the software as offered meets their current needs enough to go along for the ride. 

As a beta tester said recently, they have been trying to rebuild the engine of a plane while flying for the last 4 years or so. Apparently it is a huge undertaking. My only gripe is that they charge a lot of money to get half of a point release at best. 
« Edit »: actually R25 is the best reason for switching to subscriptions. Who would be crazy enough to upgrade one’s perpetual license and fork out 1000€ for a UI overhaul? Im

sure Maxon thought about it. 

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