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Cinema R25 Release


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19 hours ago, DaveW said:


Then stay on R17 and nobody here is angry. You’re argument makes no sense. This user was responding to the comment that there hasn’t been any huge updates since R17. Which is ridiculous. 
 

Just because you don’t use fields doesn’t mean it wasn’t a good update… and the most recent updates will of course be smaller as the release cycle is now sped up. 

 

19 hours ago, DMcGavran said:

This is simply not true.  

 

https://www.maxon.net/en/buy/perpetual

 

The fall update of Red Giant products was for subscribers but we still sell Red Gian Perpetual.

 

Cheers

Dave

 

As DaveW pointed out, maybe you missed this paragraph in the CGChannle article:

 

image.png.df3a190e8353971247a0a6a402d35857.png

 

So CGChannel got their reporting correct as their statement aligns to the new release announcements and how the  perpetual license page at the Maxon site only points to the previous versions. 

 

The only explanation could be that the perpetual license page is out-of-date - which can happen during new product releases.   Therefore, to be fair, I yield the floor to you for an accurate explanation as to whether or not perpetual licensing for the "current" versions of these products are still available.

 

Dave

Sorry...but I simply do not have enough faith to be an atheist.

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20 hours ago, ingvarai said:

R 25 - not for me. And I am not a customer for Maxon, we do not fit together, anymore.
I am a professional programmer. Multimedia for me mainly is a hobby. An expensive hobby. Although I make some non-profit stuff for ideal purposes, like nature preservation and environment issues. And I love making plug-ins for C4D, I write them in C++. And have kept them for myself, so far,  Plug-ins for animation mostly. Seems like animation in R25 has added some of the same features I came up with myself, several years ago.

I have purchased all Studio versions of C4D, from R13 up to and including R23.
I am getting old, and will eventually retire. But creating stuff, both programming and making multimedia presentations, is so fun, that I will continue with this for many years to come. 
Therefore I have purchased perpetual versions of C4D, so that I still own my software, and can play with it, also in the coming years. 

I was willing to pay for the R25 perpetual too, and got a Quotation from Maxon. Nice. That was until I saw in what direction things are moving now.
* I am uncertain about to what extent I will at all get some real new features in C4D, before I die.
* Maxon radically changed the ting I love the most in C4D - the user interface. For 26 years I have been designing and programming GUIs myself. Award winning software, commercial successful software, and tons of tailored proprietary solutions for customers. So I have an idea about this, seen from the workshop, not only as a user.
That Maxon managed to wreck such a beautiful user interface, is beyond me. Yes, you can to some extent  revert to the old layout,  but not to all those familiar harmonic colors - they are gone. I will assert that the pre R25 super GUI was C4Ds trademark. That was the main reason I chose C4D in 2012.

 

Now, Maxon cannot make software only for me. I understand that.
Things are happening in the software business, things that I feel are under-communicated.
* Piracy, to what extent is this the driving force behind the subscription model?
* Generic maturity, to what extent is this the driving force behind the subscription model?
With maturity I mean a generic saturation of features in today's software. In 1999, I would not use 10 years old software. Not even 3 years old applications. Today, I use Adobe CS 6, Illustrator, Photoshop and After Effects, and still have not discovered more than a fraction of all the fantastic functions in these applications.

So, I think I can make fantastic animations in the C4D versions I have, for many years to come. 
Worth mentioning, I  recently renewed my perpetual Redshift license, and I also have a running perpetual license for X-Particles.

Now, I will continue to write C++ utilities for C4D, and make animations and renderings. Having fun in my own cave. And I just have to accept that Maxon needs a steady stream of money, and accept that I am not the kind of customer they need for their future.   


-Ingvar

 

Very disappointing what Maxon turned into, all the great spirit is gone with the new 'management'.

 

I share almost the same story...

 

As 3D hobbyist, I purchased C4D R17 Studio and kept it up-to-date until R21 with MSA. Just renewed the Redshift perpetual license and XP / Fuse maintanance for the last time a couple of days ago.

 

I will never rent software and I try to avoid online licensing wherever possible, actually it's only Insydium software that is just too good to miss out.

 

If R25 was a killer release I might have upgraded, but the improvements in the last couple of versions are not worth it to me.

 

I couldn't care less for any future Cinema updates anymore, I will continue using R20 (and R21 as long as it still starts, who knows) along with tons of plugins, Blender and other software.

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I played with R25 this WE. I really like the new UI. Very logical to me. 
I finally had a look at nodes and started playing with capsules. It did not take me long to realize how powerful these will become and I’m sure a community of capsule makers will soon arise and start sharing their own creations. Not sure why Maxon did not advertise them much. Maybe because of all the limitations…
Still a super weak release in my opinion, the weakest in a decade and definitely not worth paying an upgrade from R21 or R23. 

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  • Guest changed the title to Cinema R25 Release
4 hours ago, Marander said:

 

..... all the great spirit is gone with the new 'management'.

 

unfortunately thats not the priority anymore. They care about money. Even when they try to compensate it with very mediocer marketing blah blah (sorry, but it is true).

That Money benefits mainly the managers that get Bonuses and the mother companies shareholders. For the normal employer (that might even hang around here) this brings not much more but worse mooded customers.

And for the Customers it is tiring to always be taken for a fool. By statements like the "This is just untrue..." further up (marketing blah blah).

Maxon can easily write a disclamer on the website that just explanes the situation clear and true and let the customer decide on real facts instead of info snippets that lures customers to buy or rent and lets them hang out to dry when they realise that they gave away their perpetual license for some month of subscription for example. Maxon more and more feels like a used car dealer where you have to crawl under the car and check everything they say, if that was the whole truth and after buying find out what they didn't tell you or what you didn't find. that for example functionality was removed without exchange.

 

let mi try a true text example (I give Maxon the allowance to use it or get inspirited by it):

 

you can Buy a perpetual version of C4D:

that means you get the last R version that was released and maybe one bugfix update after 3 month or so. All features that are defined as beta or tech demo stay beta or tech demo. further you will not get any other update or bugfix whatsoever.

you don't get access to cineversity or any other features that are subscription only.

the perpetuity of the license might be limited by the accessibility to the activation server.

 

or you can rent C4D with a subscription:

subscription is cheaper, you get access to the latest version of C4D and all features that are subscription right now for example cineversity.

These services might change while you are subscribed.

you are not entitled to a defined amount of developement that goes into C4D nor any amount or type of feature. If you stop subscription you loose access to your files and there is no way to access these files again without resubscribing or buying a perpetual license. No matter how long your subscription was.

If you are unhappy with the way C4D develops you can do basically nothing without loosing access to you files. You might complain in forums, but that has proven to be of little effect.

 

of course this is just a example of a no Bullshit text 🙂 

If it should sound nicer without adding bullshit or removing truth maxon of course just could change their offers that are described in the text. 

 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, BoganTW said:

These long dumb rants keep missing the point.

 

They’re still doing the big core rewrite/redo, and things won’t settle down until they’re done. And it started years before McGavran took over, so don’t blame him.

maybe you could consider reading my post again? I am not talking about the core rewrite at all (which is a good thing) I am talking about the marketing and the communication of the offerings. And these things have drastically changed since McGravan took over. There was a lot of hope back then that communication could change for the better, but unfortunately the inaccessibility before just was exchanged for mediocre marketing blah blah now.

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3 hours ago, BoganTW said:

These long dumb rants keep missing the point.

 

They’re still doing the big core rewrite/redo, and things won’t settle down until they’re done. And it started years before McGavran took over, so don’t blame him.

 

The rants mostly trace back to subscription though, so that's all on the new management. It's entirely likely the old management would have to have done the same thing, but the key is they never got to that, with the result that R20 is as far as I know the last version under the old management, is not subscription, and is the last version that users could truly own. (Anything tied to periodic server reactivations is NOT ownership! imo) R20 is the gold standard currently available Cinema version in existence, and represents the EOL for Maxon and Cinema 4D as we knew it. I personally consider R20 the finished version of Cinema 4D, or as far as old management could get to finished before passing it on to the next stewards . Everything that comes afterward is Maxon's second life. I don't see any reason for perpetual users to buy new every version. Just use the versions you have now until Maxon is finished with the rewrite, and then when you can't stand to not have what's new any longer, then consider buying a new version, if it's even available in perpetual. If it isn't, there should then be a decent market for the last perpetuals in existence, unless the lawyerly written ULA prevents selling them (because with server activation required, the choice to sell or not is not the owner's any more, another reason to hate server anchors.)

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 (Anything tied to periodic server reactivations is NOT ownership! imo) 

I've never understood the subscription hate. And I suffered through most of IceCaveMan's rants on the topic, along with the crazy house nattering of the guy at CGTalk who apparently left for Blender but is still first in line to post a negative thousand word rant every time Maxon scratches their head. When R30 comes out in 5 years time he'll still be giving everyone updates on how Maxon apparently murdered his dog or wrecked his Toyota or something.

 

Everything should be on subscription. Which I guess should make me happy as pretty much everything is now anyway. Maxon's might be pricier than some others but I can still track the near future date I'll be jumping into it wholehearted down to the month, whereas with their old pricing the broke hobbyist was left contemplating the likelihood of a Tattslotto win to get going.

 

I agree though that from the sound of it people that own earlier versions may as well wait until things look compelling before they need (if ever) to re sub or re purchase.

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2 hours ago, BoganTW said:

Everything should be on subscription.

 No real comment necessary from me. Your "wisdom" speaks for itself.

 

No software ownership, home ownership, auto ownership, or computer. Does seem a trend. You are primed to flourish in the slave-scription world order. Congratulations.

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7 hours ago, Jops said:

unfortunately thats not the priority anymore. They care about money. Even when they try to compensate it with very mediocer marketing blah blah (sorry, but it is true).

That Money benefits mainly the managers that get Bonuses and the mother companies shareholders. For the normal employer (that might even hang around here) this brings not much more but worse mooded customers.

 

It is a business. I hope they are caring about money. Money is what pays every employee their wages so that they can continue to work. And I highly doubt there are any managers getting bonuses. Also Maxon is no longer just a C4D company. They now have a very large portfolio of products. And all the business decisions now span a much wider market. I understand why perpetual C4D customers may not be that overwhelmed by this (and the previous S24) release. But for users on the subscription it means absolutely nothing. Just keep on working, use S24 or S25 if they have features you need and if you want to adjust your workflow, otherwise stick to S23 to R21. For the price of a new perpetual license today you could be on a sub for almost 5 years. I wonder how many customers would still even consider purchasing a perpetual these days. Doesn't make much sense. My last perpetual was R21 (and I own everything back to R17). However, I am a registered developer and do get access to the Beta versions. But for everything I would ever do R21 is perfectly fine for my purposes. I even do all my development in R21 (I only use newer versions to test compatibility). If I do leave the developer program I would loose my access, but then I would only get a sub if there was some feature that I really wanted to use. But in most cases there are other tools that already fill the gaps I would need anyway. Not sure what I am really getting at here other than to say businesses need to stay profitable and customers should do what is right for them. But for the past few years I keep seeing the same arguments and comments being thrown at Maxon every release. How much longer will people keep saying the same things? When it comes to business if something doesn't suit your needs then quickly move on. Although I have been annoyed at many companies for the direction they have taken, I understand it is just business, not a personal vendetta against me personally. Companies get bigger and have to get their big boy pants on and make hard decisions that will affect some of their user base, that is inevitable. But hopefully the decisions that Maxon has made will allow it to prosper and continue to expand, grow larger, get a bigger community and potentially one day dominate over their competition (Autodesk, The Foundry and maybe even Adobe). I say good luck to them and I am happy I could have helped and will be sticking around to take this journey with them until such time as my life takes me in a different direction. 

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2 hours ago, Icecaveman said:

 No real comment necessary from me. Your "wisdom" speaks for itself.

 

No software ownership, home ownership, auto ownership, or computer. Does seem a trend. You are primed to flourish in the slave-scription world order. Congratulations.

 

By 'everything' I mean software, with people able to dive in to using the software with a minimal upfront or ongoing cost, rather than dumping thousands of dollars into getting things going.

 

I don't remember referencing home or auto ownership, and it's unlikely a conversation on a software forum about a software release would make reference to such, but you drag them in because a software sub is clearly a 1984-style reference to something much more ominous, womp womp.

 

Some years back I pissed away a couple of grand buying CS4 outright from Adobe, only to learn that the minimal specs were fudged and the CS4 pack as a whole was buggy as hell. 

 

Now if I want to get going with After Effects or Premiere I can just pay the monthly sub, and if circumstances change I can slip back out of it without feeling I poured all my savings down the toilet.

 

Amazing how the term 'slave-scription' comes up about software where there's a greatly reduced cost of entry and folks can dump it and leave it at the drop of a hat, versus the ostensible bigger freedom where you had to burn thousands of dollars to get a foot in the door, and changing course any time after would make you feel you'd wasted a crate of money. I think you have things backwards.

 

Your endless screeds about the necessity of software ownership always seem to pertain to some hypothetical circumstance at the end of one's career where a user wants to spend their Golden Years not working, but endlessly tinkering about with the software they bought five years earlier, and never notes the feelings or circumstances of students, casuals or the unemployed who don't have thousands to dump at the time they want to get everything going.

 

But this seems characteristic of your posts, which also make syrupy reference to the 'golden years' of Maxon when they made bugger all public statements about their roadmap, but now feels affronted by their behaviour when they make frequent public announcements about software in beta and have regular Youtube chats describing where various new features are going. Again, this is a real head scratcher for anyone with a modicum of logic or common sense, but characteristic of many of your posts. I'll grant you your commentary here isn't as crazed as some of the CG Talk commentary, where even you eventually calmed down a tad.

 

There is always Blender of course, yet the most vocal folk who have jumped ship across to it still seem mighty sore and unhappy with their lot, and return again and again to remind us how aggrieved they are with life. FFS - get over it and move on. I'm sure I had this whole back and forth rant about subs with you either two or three years ago. Yet I mention two years later how good I think the subscription process is, and even though you've 'moved on' to Blender, you're still salty and taking pot shots at people who feel different to how you do.

 

If you're still posting rants about how terrible a C4D sub is in 2023 or 2024 - and as with the other folks who jumped ship, I can probably already set my watch and take bets that you will -it will say far more about you than it does the users, C4D or Maxon.

 

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