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Cinema R25 Release


Guest Igor

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18 minutes ago, MazurBr said:

Yes, Maxon is going the wrong way but not because they're are following Autodesk. If they were, we would have quality Cinema 4D releases every years, we wouldn't need an external renderer and particle/simulations plug, and we would have an affordable indie version. I should wish Maxon would actually copy Autodesk, that would be an amazing improvement. 

 

I agree, but to be fair, Maya did use an external renderer (Mental Ray) for quite a long time until they bought their own (Arnold), plus maya software / hardware is as good as cinema physical / hardware renderer.

 

Also, I kinda remember a couple of maya releases with nothing to show. The last one is pretty much lackluster, and to give credit to Maxon, Maya did shipped Mash / Bifrost pretty much unfinished with a plethora of bugs and called it a day for a long time.

 

edit.. at least Maxon was upfront and tell us Capsules and Nodes are still a work in progress

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2 hours ago, luchifer said:

X-Cycles / Geometry nodes seems promising but as every other promise in Blender "in the future is gonna beat X / Y / Z"

 

CyclesX has just been merged into the 3.0 alpha, and you were able to download the corresponding branch for some time, so it's possible to follow development and actually to test the renderer even before release. It's not necessary to treat it as a promise for the future, you can just check it out and compare. In fact, YouTube has quite a few CyclesX test/comparison videos already.

 

As far as Geometry Nodes go, I haven't followed that development closely enough so I can't say whether they must be seen as a work in progress, or whether they can bring some practical use to the 3.0 already. I am aware that there were larger changes in GN concepts at a pretty late date. Anyway, it's not the long term service version yet, thus I wouldn't set my expectations too high without actually testing.

 

The major version number may create some overblown hopes; ultimately this is just the next steady release and not some kind of magical transformation into a wondrous unicorn. (The version numbers in the second place had their issues... people say "2.8" although it was "two eighty" -- with the actual 2.8 a decade or so ago --, and skipping 2.84, 2.85 etc. doesn't help. So I suppose not going to "2.100" is a necessity.)

 

There is still no material manager, and compared with Cinema's Object Manager, the Outliner is seriously lacking. But at least you don't have to subscribe to an external renderer that should be part of the package, as I heard is the case with some other CGI apps.

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5 hours ago, luchifer said:

 

The biggest problem with Maxon is Softimage, they also took their time and eventually Softimage ICE was born and is still one of the best DCC  in the market, well, guess what happens to its userbase? And Im talking about BEFORE Autodesk bought it and EoL.

Since i was a XSI user i can tell something about its demise. The main reason is that the persons that were driving it moved on. 

Other reasons:

-Elitist mindset from managers and some top users until around 2005.

-For this reason they were late to the Global Illumination wave. Reasoning was: we have Mentalray were are good.

-I suspect that company did a lot of contract work and as let a lot of the "extra step" missing  for it.

-XSI was considered by coders a giant DLL, unfriendly to plugs ins. They did not cared to document the code to make renders like Vray work nor much helped Vlad, Then when they started to feel the market heat they had to plead to Vray to make a version...

It was nice to use, i still rate it the best 3D app in its sweet spot between approachability vs  achievable complexity. Many stuff done in XSI still cannot be done in C4D.   I remember a time when a complex Realflow simulation that was unworkable in 3DsMax just played without flaw in XSI.

 

 

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18 hours ago, DasFrodo said:

I don't know where you're reading stuff like this, but in my experience Blender Users are generally very happy and very outspoken when it comes to telling people how awesome Blender is, which can even be annoying at times.

 

I agree. I wasn't talking about every Blender user, just the irate ones. Scroll back a couple of pages and see if you can spot one. 

 

My post was about the Blender users who are aggressive at doing two things. Saying how they've jumped over to Blender because C4D doesn't cut it. And saying how ANGRY at Maxon they are, even though they've long since left it behind for Blender.

 

Infograph at C4D talk is another such dude. And (could be wrong) I think he used to post as Cutman here, unless there are two such guys who post exactly the same rants and are angry at exactly the same stuff. CGTalk was a fun place once, but every time it sputters back into life, he's there, waiting with baited breath with a stick to bash Maxon and Maxon fans and users over the head.

 

Disclaimer. Generally Blender users are a happy bunch. Even the Blender Today guy has some nice Mario music playing at the start of his show. But the "I used to be a C4D guy but now I've left for Blender but I still really really hate Maxon, in case you've forgotten about the last 100 times I mentioned it" subspecies of Blender dude is a thing. And my pondering what is going on in their brains is just a result of them repeatedly inviting such contemplation through their rants. Although IceCaveMan once posted at CgTalk that he had been ranting away at the keyboard after a few too many drinks, so we have one explanation there. IceCaveMan, if you've never said this, my apologies. It is just how I remember you exiting one of the many epic and colourful threads you posted there, amid the excerpted lyrics from maudlin Golden Oldies hits, descriptions of subs as being a crime against humanity and vile personal attacks against the Maxon CEO.

 

 Ingvarai posted this funny thing earlier.

 

"Moving to the subscription model is a sign of
a) Panic, sales are plummeting or
b) The need to hide what I call feature maturity, the saturation of nifty features"

 

This makes him the first guy in the thread to suggest that C4D has too many cool features ,and the subscription model is a plot to hide the fact that they don't need to develop any more of them.

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45 minutes ago, BoganTW said:

 Ingvarai posted this funny thing earlier.

 

"Moving to the subscription model is a sign of
a) Panic, sales are plummeting or
b) The need to hide what I call feature maturity, the saturation of nifty features"

 

This makes him the first guy in the thread to suggest that C4D has too many cool features ,and the subscription model is a plot to hide the fact that they don't need to develop any more of them.


My wording could have been better.
Here is what I mean about this:

I have been in the software business for 24 years now, and have noticed a few things. I like to call this “feature maturity”, or “functions saturation”.
This applies to both hardware and software. I have an HP Photosmart ink printer, bought in 2000. It is still a reliable workhorse. Go figure.. a printer more than two years old in 1998 would have been replaced, immediately. My main computer is a powerful beast I built myself in 2010.
I have Adobe CS6, the last one they released as perpetual, almost ten years I think. And to me it is so advanced, I will never discover all the things I can use it for.

So to the point:
I sincerely believe that it is not so much the hardware / software which is the limitation anymore, but more the artist her/himself. Some of us have come to the point when good is good enough. The stupefying availability of all kinds of multimedia software in 2021 will already allow you to create almost any imaginable and unimaginable artistry. 
Let's take Microsoft Office. What do you really miss in Office 2010, that will force you to subscribe to Office 365?

Finally:
Me thinks that the big software companies have problems with a steady income, because customers, due to the aforementioned  conditions, may skip a version or three. The curve has been flattened. And the solution: Subscription.

-Ingvar

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2 hours ago, ingvarai said:

Let's take Microsoft Office. What do you really miss in Office 2010, that will force you to subscribe to Office 365?

 

For me nothing because it is the same inflexible software.  Some are trying to move on from that inflexibility like airtable.com, Spreedsheet.com.

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46 minutes ago, Pinin said:

 

For me nothing because it is the same inflexible software.  Some are trying to move on from that inflexibility like airtable.com, Spreedsheet.com.

 

Those aren't better than MS Office and are also subscription based. There are free alternatives to MS Office that are file-type compatible that are 90% as good. And there are novel solutions that are super and available for perpetual license fee.

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1 hour ago, Macgyver said:

But Maxon/C4D were different, long ago.

Very well said, all of it in your post. IMO one of the best posts in this thread/topic.
Just one thing, C4D  was different just one version ago. It still had its "Maxonified" user interface. Super logical way of doing things, and all those nice colors and icons.
I was tempted to pay for R25, just to support Maxon and hope that the next version would break the tech preview chain. But merely the thought of having to relearn the GUI, that put me off. It is not done in a week. Not even in a month. And relearning the GUI would also mean trouble using the previous versions. I have R13 to R23 Studio versions, and still use some of the older, because they have plugins I need. Switching back and forth between two C4D GUIs, I get a headache just by the thought..

-Ingvar

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15 hours ago, ingvarai said:

Let's take Microsoft Office. What do you really miss in Office 2010, that will force you to subscribe to Office 365?

 

I'm not sure Office 2010 has 4K support or will be compatible with next windows version, or be compatible with drivers, you know, you cant expect developers still working on support eleven years later. To be devils advocate, subscriptions in a way to allow a company to support the software through the year, or to allocate budget for big projects.

 

Although, in this case, I cant really say if subscriptions are working as intended because we only get two updates per year, and in one of the updates we got CV-Smart. Next time I suppose they gonna take something out of Maxon Labs and add it to S25.1 update notes hoping we don't notice.

 

Anyway, back to work I guess, I'm in the same boat as Macgyver, is not easy to leave Maxon, and, at the end of the day, what truly matters is if it works, and cinema does the job.

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18 minutes ago, ingvarai said:

Very well said, all of it in your post. IMO one of the best posts in this thread/topic.
Just one thing, C4D  was different just one version ago. It still had its "Maxonified" user interface. Super logical way of doing things, and all those nice colors and icons.
I was tempted to pay for R25, just to support Maxon and hope that the next version would break the tech preview chain. But merely the thought of having to relearn the GUI, that put me off. It is not done in a week. Not even in a month. And relearning the GUI would also mean trouble using the previous versions. I have R13 to R23 Studio versions, and still use some of the older, because they have plugins I need. Switching back and forth between two C4D GUIs, I get a headache just by the thought..

-Ingvar

I don't understand this position, as all the old layouts are still available, and you can import your own customized layout as easily as ever. All that's different is the icons and background color. I know learning new icons can be off-putting as I resisted for a couple of years the last time they were changed, but in the end I finally came around and it wasn't difficult at all. 

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4 minutes ago, MJV said:

All that's different is the icons and background color. I know learning new icons can be off-putting as I resisted for a couple of years the last time they were changed, but in the end I finally came around and it wasn't difficult at all. 

I love the color scheme C4D has used since dawn. Now it is gone. Watch the recent review on Greyscalegorilla. I am not alone with this view.
But I give you right, it is allegedly possible to use the old layout, at least to some extent. But as far as I have understood, there is some animation involved, or am I wrong? Hot corners etc. I do not like animated interfaces at all. And I shudder with the thought of a context sensitive GUI, if that means that the GUI changes just because I select or deselect something.

-Ingvar   

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