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Cinema R25 Release


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On 10/3/2021 at 9:09 PM, kbar said:

 

I think the blender community is going to really miss Pablo Dobarro (he developed the sculpting and painting tools). And by the sounds of it, it was the community itself that drove him to quit.

 

There's more to the story, it seems. But I do not know the people involved in person, nor do I want to rely on hearsay and speculations, so discussing matters like these generally leads to more speculation in the best case, and tin-hat wearing conspiracy tales at the worst.

 

What I do know for a fact is that another developer (Joe Eager) began work on improving the Sculpt functions in Blender a while ago, and that he intends to (finally!!!) add sculpt layers and VDM (Vector Displacement Mapping).

 

He's already implemented hard face set boundaries for Dyntopo sculpting, and just the other day presented a new extrude tool in sculpt mode. Some demos (more on his channel):

 

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 9/20/2021 at 3:45 PM, RBarrett said:

 

I realize subscription isn't for everyone and some of you are disappointed, but frankly I'm getting tired of the accusation that we're all sitting back and relaxing when I and my colleagues are working harder than ever.

 

 

OK, so I read the same from the Redshift developers, whining that people don't get how hard they work.

 

Well, some people say you don't, you say you do. Someone has to be wrong.

Maybe those complaining are exaggerating, or they're a "vocal minority" or whatever other corporate term you want to use. But, if they're just a "vocal minority" why does it bother you so much? Maybe they're not such a minority? And if there's more of them than you want to admit, then maybe that's why it bothers you?


I also hardly ever see a company taking responsibility or admitting any wrong-doings or mistakes. So, really, I wouldn't expect you or any other company to say "yeah, this release wasn't much" or "yeah, we're sitting back and collecting subscription money". Though you could tone down the silly attempts at making it look like it's worth it. Really, if you have to make a release sound better by saying you added more stock assets then something is wrong.

I mean, C4D needs plugins for things that are basic, standard features in all competing products, but hurray, more stock assets!

 

So what's your point? Just saying "no, really believe me, we're working hard" doesn't really mean much to people who obviously think you're not. If they feel the way the do it's because of your actions not what you're saying.

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Just for the record, Rick is one of the hardest working people i know. I get it that not nearly everything he does is immediately visible to the end user, but without him we all would have a lot less. He is working tireless for you and me since the late 90s. You don't do that for the money or the fame, you do that because you love it.

Over the last 20 years i have seen so many people critizising without knowing what is actually being done. I understand the frustration if things that you see as priority are not adressed in the way you would like them to, but on the other hand few people outside of Maxon have any idea on how complex and difficult some seemingly straight forward things are. The comprehension that assets require different ressources than features is not given to everyone.

Factual critique? Yes please. Ideas on Improvement? Yes please. Assumption that we ignore problems for the sake of hauling money? You can keep that one.

Cheers

Björn

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1 hour ago, srek said:

Just for the record, Rick is one of the hardest working people i know. I get it that not nearly everything he does is immediately visible to the end user, but without him we all would have a lot less. He is working tireless for you and me since the late 90s. You don't do that for the money or the fame, you do that because you love it.

Over the last 20 years i have seen so many people critizising without knowing what is actually being done. I understand the frustration if things that you see as priority are not adressed in the way you would like them to, but on the other hand few people outside of Maxon have any idea on how complex and difficult some seemingly straight forward things are. The comprehension that assets require different ressources than features is not given to everyone.

Factual critique? Yes please. Ideas on Improvement? Yes please. Assumption that we ignore problems for the sake of hauling money? You can keep that one.

Cheers

Björn

Dear Bjorn.

 

I think everyone understands that you, Rick etc. are working very hard. But I think by now there has to be some recognition that Cinema has been falling behind and the rate of development is not as it should be. This is due more to structural/political reasons than individals. (More developers need to be hired, focus should be on what's really needed etc etc).

 

I think most people on this forum criticise Maxon with a heavy heart. Most have loved and been evaneglists for Cinema in the past. And its painful and disruprtive to our own workflows & careers when Cinema lags behind. That Cinema does not ship with a production ready render in 2021 is inexcuseable in my opinion, and is purely driven my money. It is moves like this that make people feel that Maxon are driven more by profit than making the best possible product. 

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10 minutes ago, davetwo said:

Dear Bjorn.

 

I think everyone understands that you, Rick etc. are working very hard. But I think by now there has to be some recognition that Cinema has been falling behind and the rate of development is not as it should be. This is due more to structural/political reasons than individals. (More developers need to be hired, focus should be on what's really needed etc etc).

 

We are hiring like crazy. As a side job and remanat from my past at Maxon i am responsible for some part of the on boarding of new hires so i see what is happening. It is a bit crazy to be honest, still we are looking for more. Thanks to the rise of 3D in general it is super difficult to find people though. The market is dry, game development sucks up a lot of talent. We are paying very competetive salaries but that doesn't help much if there are just not enough people around. Even if we were to get as many people as we want, it takes time to get them to production level. Cinema 4D is a hell of a complex product and to be able to work on major elements of it requires quite a bit of preparation and learning.
At the beginning you have to put new hires on smaller stuff to introduce them to the technology behind. I still remember the ridicule we got for the Cogwhell spline. Oh what fun was beeing had that we would add that but not adress major issue this or that. It was one of many starter tasks for a new hire who later on contributed quite important parts, but only after he got to that level of knowledge about how Cinema 4D works internally!
So if you know any talented devs, feel free to  point them our way, preferably to me, since we get nice incentives for bringing in new people 🙂

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As if someone, many, or everyone could suddenly start working harder and everything would be fine. Tell that to armies who lose wars. Everyone works hard. A company succeeds or doesn't based on a whole slew of factors that don't really come down to how hard people are working, such as leadership, vision, drive, planning, luck, resources, etc. Maxon has been a successful company for as long as I've known it, but continued success doesn't suddenly get guaranteed as long as everyone pledges to keep working hard.  If only it were that easy.

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20 minutes ago, srek said:

So if you know any talented devs, feel free to  point them our way, preferably to me, since we get nice incentives for bringing in new people


Hi Srek, 
Would plug-ins be of interest to you? I have been a professional programmer for 25 years, all  kinds of languages. 3D is my (expensive) hobby.
I have C4D R13, R14, R15, R16, R17, R18, R19, R20, R21 and R23, all Studio versions, so I have some knowledge about the product. I have written several plugins, mainly for animation. All in C++. I couldn't make C4D do what I wanted, so I wrote my own extensions. Never published, I use them in-house, for myself.
The code I have written could probably be easily integrated into C4D, as extra functionality.

The question is: Is this interesting to Maxon at all?

As for the rest of the discussion here in this super-long thread, I have my thoughts, of course. But I will mention just one of them: I had my credit card ready, because I got a quotation from Maxon for perpetual R25, I was about to purchase. Then I saw on YouTube that the super beautiful, super functional, super familiar, super ingenious, super productive User Interface was changed. Especially the harmonic colors were gone, and the familiar mussel-memory-baked symbols had been over-simplified.. The GUI - exactly what struck me as out-of-the-world ingenious the first time I fired up Cinema 4D, in May, in2012.
I have been developing GUIs for 25 years.. so I have my opinions about this. 
I didn't purchase t his version. I need to think about it. Sigh..

 

-Ingvar


 

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everyone should have a life besides the work that is true for artists and developers. And everyone has the right for this.

I think that the discussion about harder work distracts from the real issue.

I am convinced that a lot of work is done.

But why do so many questions remain unanswered, many of which have nothing to do with development.

The first question is why is so little of the work visible?

That is easy to answer. It is because maxon is working on the new core and that is basically recreating the software from scratch.

The rest of the questions are not that simple to answer - for example why is this transition so poorly communicated? Yes as a regular forum member you hear about it but people that are not part of such a community just see the "lack" of development. Capsules could have been presented super sexy (each capule is basically a new feature) with mind blowing examples and a view into the future also the rest of the marketing material is quite medioker. Marketing and customer communication do not need developers. Btw. I  am not talking about better marketing blah blah or new logos. I am talking about communication with value. But as people do not directly pay for marketing I guess it is reduced to the bare minimum.

An other question is: why is redshift not integrated into c4d. And if there are no plans to integrate it. why Is the material and reflectance mess not worked on.

or - why are the development planes not communicated ( I understand the problems with that, but other companies seam to get it working quite well, they are even able to organize customer input in a way, that the customers feel valued and not ignored)

And - Why is customer goodwill given away so easily by company decisions that make the impression that maxon could gain anything by punishing the old user base.

 

Most of these points have little to do with development capacities and it is these questions that never get truly answered. The inability or unwillingness to answer these kind of questions fuel the displeasure that is visible not just on this forum and not just by a few. I basically have talked to NO college the last two years that is not aware this. And all of them look at it concerned. 

Customers do a s a group not magically decide to be unhappy about the product or its conditions. It is the company that it responsible for this through its decisions. And if the situation is, that the visible development can not keep up with the expectations or the competition, then a company needs to change something else. What I don't mean with this is trying to lock its customers in, wich seems to be the main measurement maxon has done.

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