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Cinema R25 Release


Igor

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6 minutes ago, 3D-Pangel said:

Introducing a new UI is always risky.  An new UI encourages people on the fence about the program to finally commit to leave and learn something else.  That will always be the situation no matter the platform or the history.  Normally, you would introduce the new UI with some killer must-have features so it encourages users to make the transition. Now, C4D's history since R20 has not been stellar.  The way perpetual license holders have been treated just gets worse with each passing year.  The focus on scene nodes as a "tech demo" is not garnering enough interest from the users as  far as I can tell or Maxon would be splattering scene nodes use cases all over their web-site.  Maybe I missed it, but they are not readily apparent.   R23 was pretty good with the new UV and animation tools.   R24, or the "Beeple release" as I like to refer to it, was great for those who like to grab hunks of stuff from the asset browser and through it all over the scenes like garnish.  In view of long standing feature improvements that continue to go unaddressed (particles, fluids, character animation, light linking, updates to AR, a good symmetry tool), not sure where asset browser fit in the priority but my guess is not very high.

 

So the history of new features from a company that is NOT known for keeping up with the industry has not been stellar.  What set C4D apart was the UI...and now they changed it.  That was  a very risky move as it was part of their identity.  Again, given their history since R20, you don't want to make a misstep when you change the UI given a declining perception from users regarding whether or not C4D will be able to keep up with other programs.   But to introduce the new UI with such lackluster features is just not a smart move.   I don't understand the thinking.  Were people desperate for a new UI?  So the UI could have waited until they had enough new features to warrant sticking with the program through that transition.

 

Honestly, I think Maxon would have been better off to NOT release anything right now.  Not sure what is coming, but it has to better than what they included in this release.  

 

But hey....their revenue is locked in with subscriptions so maybe they hope they can get away with it.

 

Well my message to Maxon is this: Hope is a bad strategy.

 

Dave

 

Just a wild guess: Most of the dev team is working on the new core (still) to get it done fast, cause they're scared that people will leave (for a reason). So no new features until the "new" C4D is entirely done.

 

What we get is just stuff that they developed to have SOMETHING for the new releases.

2 minutes ago, Adrien said:

What a joke ahah! The UI overhaul was the one thing I was not expecting at all. 
Hard to believe that it was a request from the community….

And about the other features…well, what other features?! LOL 

They should have postponed this release. With subs, they no longer have to stick to an annual plan so why the heck did they release such a shameful, lackluster product? 

 

Because people have been getting their new C4D releases at the same time, every year, for a long time now.

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For me, the track retiming tag looks pretty cool, and of course Redshift RT Beta. Cant wait to try it, though I guess if it isnt advertised as much, must be because it has some pretty strong limitations at the moment. Capsules, node editor, looks more and more like another way more powerful software.

 

What I really hate, is the slow development of tools, the excuse from old days was "the core wasnt ready", and Im not sure what is it this time. I get they are building something good, but if it takes so long, no one will be around to use it.

 

Final note: I don't get the interface hate, because it does look cool and it has a ton of improvements for faster workflow, and while I dont like the snail speed of development, I do love they keep improving the interface and some everyday tools, but developers cant be blind, we customers pay a lot of money for new features and you guys are delivering faster shortcuts and faster menus, and small improvements, but not overall speed.

 

Its like paying for a new car but with the same engine, only this time you press a button to start the ignition instead of using keys, and the radio buttons are on the wheel, and we are F1 drivers asking for more speed for more than a decade.

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I wouldn't mind a GUI change, if there was anything else in the update that I would find useful. But I won't call a GUI change "half of an update", which is apparently what it is. I am working with a customized multi-monitor outfit anyway, so all these placement changes and pop-up things do nothing for me. I have a working document-tabbing plugin already, and I am not crazy about the Blender-like layout buttons (as I have plenty of layouts; won't fit the line at all). All of this GUI stuff should have been an add-on for a rich update.

I don't see myself paying the Perpetual fee for this update, sorry. I would have liked some of the S24 stuff, but this here... nah.

 

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4 minutes ago, luchifer said:

Final note: I don't get the interface hate, because it does look cool and it has a ton of improvements for faster workflow, and while I dont like the snail speed of development, I do love they keep improving the interface and some everyday tools, but developers cant be blind, we customers pay a lot of money for new features and you guys are delivering faster shortcuts and faster menus, and small improvements, but not overall speed.

 

I don't think people are necessarily complaining about the interface. They are complaining about something that nobody asked for and getting almost nothing else.

2 minutes ago, MazurBr said:

DMcGavran's bosses at Adobe must be happy.

 

"Our spy completed his mission. He destroyed our main competitor in the Motion Graphics business! C4D is no more! Buahahahahaha!!! (evil anime laugh here)" 

 

Makes you think at this point, doesn't it? This borders on intent at this point.

 

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8 minutes ago, DasFrodo said:

Just a wild guess: Most of the dev team is working on the new core (still) to get it done fast, cause they're scared that people will leave (for a reason). So no new features until the "new" C4D is entirely done.

I really, really, really hope that's the case, and I hate that I can't be certain if this release is the result of what you're guessing, or if they've committed fully to the lackluster feature, stable income approach. I know this is an industry software package, so they can't reveal too much of what they're merely working on with no flashy showing off, but it would be much more reassuring to me if they went out and said "we're working on this and that, it's gonna take a while". That would probably cause an Osborne effect, though.

I suppose scene nodes are that thing, kind of, but outside of mograph (admittedly the thing C4D is known for) and generally abstract visuals, is there a major use for them?

 

The new interface is nice, and it's also optional (the layout at least, not the new icons), but as others mentioned, UI was the least of Cinema's problems. The only reason I haven't jumped over to Blender is the latter's intimidating interface and usability.

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worst release ever. There is not even one new function that is needed in the work. I was hoping for this release, but now I definitely decided not to renew my subscription and go to blender + houdini.

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1 minute ago, Xeotroid said:

I really, really, really hope that's the case, and I hate that I can't be certain if this release is the result of what you're guessing, or if they've committed fully to the lackluster feature, stable income approach.

The last really substantial Cinema4D release was R14. That was 9 years ago. From R15 to R20 (6 versions) we had the equivalent of maybe 2 full versions (if we compare with a full version of Maya, Bender, Houdini, etc...). The less we say about R21 to R25 the better. 

 

So, in the end you can be pretty sure that Maxon is 100% committed to "lackluster feature, stable income approach".  It's their business model now. 

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6 minutes ago, MazurBr said:

The last really substantial Cinema4D release was R14. That was 9 years ago. From R15 to R20 (6 versions) we had the equivalent of maybe 2 full versions (if we compare with a full version of Maya, Bender, Houdini, etc...). The less we say about R21 to R25 the better.

this feels absolutely correct. R14 was great. R15–R20 less and less progress. Aren’t they using the “new core” argument for almost a decade now? I happily paid my MSA waiting patiently for this “new core” and the promised land that would follow. There must come a day when even the biggest fanboy realizes: there’s not much substance. Sure, the new core will come, but that doesn’t mean any of the improvements asked for for more than a decade will materialize anytime soon, if ever.

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15 minutes ago, Xeotroid said:

I suppose scene nodes are that thing, kind of, but outside of mograph (admittedly the thing C4D is known for) and generally abstract visuals, is there a major use for them?

 

 

I think the idea behind them is basically to be a user-friendly Houdini. Which would have huge implications for the software IMO. Especially if it starts to integrate into real time engines like HDA's can.  There is a reason Blender is also creating Geometry nodes. 

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5 minutes ago, DaveW said:

I think the idea behind them is basically to be a user-friendly Houdini.

 

I'm sure you're right. They've been moving in this direction for quite a while. The problem: If you need scene nodes, and are happy working with them, then you'll be happy with Houdini. So why wait for 'Houdini Light' (C4D), when you can get 'Houdini Max'?  If you're a solo freelancer it's cheaper (Indie), and if you're a bigger studio $5K is perfectly affordable.

 

If they continue on the current trajectory C4D is going to get crushed between Blender on one side and Houdini on the other.

 

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3 minutes ago, Cairyn said:

 

What, they broke the compatibility yet again? For what? The new GUI?

Yes, it seems so, at least Rocketlasso did mention that somewhere at the beginning of his "New in R25" video. His plugins already are compatible with R25. 

 

I haven't upgraded since R18, but I did try to stay in the loop, more or less. This seems like the weakest release in Maxon history. Also, the 3D Motion presentation (I only watched some of )the beginning of it)  seemed  oddly unprofessional, like they couldn't even spare the money for decent mics... 

 

So C4D now has a Blender skin (very convenient should I decide to go back to Cinema some day), the CV ArtSmart tools are no longer a plugin but have turned into a spline importer, and the Capsule received a massive update because they couldn't come up with yet more awesome Bevel options for MoText this year? 🙂 

 

Even if, for example, you find the (at this point completely unnecessary) changes to the UI useful and an improvement, I am wondering whether this, or any of the other new "features" justifies the price of an annual or monthly subscription, let alone the upgrade price for a perpetual licence. 

 

From a quick look at some other forums it seems Maxon is pretty much getting creamed for this release, and I guess they deserve it, too. 

 

Someone said that it would take another 3 to 4 years until the development with respect to Scene Nodes etc. would be completed. Considering the development speed at Maxon over the past 10 years or so, I think that is not an unrealistic estimate. Once again this year, it looks like they're declaring anything as a "feature" to bridge the years until the final, game-changing uber version will be unleashed on mankind and shake the very foundation of the 3D world. Few enough of us lived to see the day the core finally started getting rewritten. I am wondering how Maxon can afford to take that long. In this business, time is not your friend. If you take a look at how other applications have been progressing in all that time Maxon mostly delivered empty promises and sketchy releases, it'll be interesting to see how this will turn out for them, and if anyone will still care when that time finally comes. 

 

In any case, as things are now, I am not surprised that even people like Toby Pitman, the author of MILG11, which still is the best SDS training ever made, have recently made a complete switch to Blender, or went from publishing C4D tutorials on YouTube to releasing Blender videos instead, or are doing at least a mixture of both now. The writing seems to be all over the wall. 

 

To be honest, I'm a bit sad about how Cinema has turned out since R18, which I still like a lot. On the other hand, I don't feel like I made a bad decsion when I switched to Blender at the end of April this year. 

 

Cheers,

Wolf3D

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