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Maxon's Spring 2022 Launch Event | Live Stream | S26 Announcement


HappyPolygon

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55 minutes ago, MighT said:

I have some doubts etc etc

 

Sorry it's early in the morning here and those long paragraphs made my brain freeze up, I couldn't even get a few sentences in. But basically if you agree with everyone that agrees with me then I agree with you.

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1 hour ago, MighT said:

Again, I apologize for being carried away. I certainly lost three or five points, I wanted top additionally mention, why it is in most cases a bad idea to just buy a piece of code or temporarily hire some externals. Yet, I hope you at least got an idea, why it is maybe not the best idea. And maybe not as productive as one might think.

 

 

I can only imagine, but from the sound of it I think it's sort of the same with any 3D project as well. It very often seems less productive to try to fix someone else's creation than to just start from scratch. 

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Some computer actions/processes should not be 'live' in a stack. Remeshing doesn't just adjust polys, it destroys and rebuilds them....and it's often used in scenarios with monstrous meshes, with millions of polys.

 

Sorry, not a good idea.

 

Maxon is adding unneeded features to its software  that will perpetually add complexity, thus slowing code development and escalating instability for users.

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12 minutes ago, Icecaveman said:

Maxon is adding unneeded features to its software  that will perpetually add complexity, thus slowing code development and escalating instability for users.

 

You can always collapse the stack into a new object.

 

People often find the way to use tools outside the boundaries of what are they intended to. Thats the reason a lot of artists just love to use C4D, even if pushing boundaries tend to slow to a crawl the interface. A font wont have complexity but it sure helps to remesh it to keep working on it, and if you need to change the text, or the font itself for whatever reason, you can do it with the new remesh and you wont lose almost any time. So, while useless for a motion picture, its perfect for broadcast.

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32 minutes ago, luchifer said:

 

You can always collapse the stack into a new object.

 

People often find the way to use tools outside the boundaries of what are they intended to. Thats the reason a lot of artists just love to use C4D, even if pushing boundaries tend to slow to a crawl the interface. A font wont have complexity but it sure helps to remesh it to keep working on it, and if you need to change the text, or the font itself for whatever reason, you can do it with the new remesh and you wont lose almost any time. So, while useless for a motion picture, its perfect for broadcast.

 

 

There was a time when c4d users loved the program for its superior stability. Plugins weren't all broken every year or two. Users also got a massive haul of new features most every year.

 

Remember?

 

In that era Maxon devs understood practical limits to "non-destructive" design. We users could easily appreciate, for example, that converting a cube primitive into a mesh was often necessary. Making breakfast means cracking some eggs. So we users learned to keep pristine primitives (or various versions of meshes) nested in backup sections of the Object Manager.

 

To be fair, Maxon has been reworking it's foundation and with that comes understandable instability, and Maxon is not alone in moving towards nodal stacking. But managers need to know which processes need to be insulated / encapsulated.

 

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42 minutes ago, Icecaveman said:

Plugins weren't all broken every year or two.

C4D was the only DCC that was able to do this. And it required such careful planning to ensure that this was the case. And the users never truly appreciated this until it was gone. But this had to happen, IE they couldn't just keep building on the old core and needed to improve everything under the hood, meaning massive API changes. We all had a good run during that time. But since R20 I now ship a separately compiled plugin for every individual release.

 

Updating a plugin for C4D now means I build from R20 to S26 on both mac and pc. That's 14 different versions of every single plugin. This is just the way it has to be now. So also spare a thought for the plugin developers out there. Anytime a new version of C4D comes out everyone still expects these free updates, because before there was zero work involved, ie the plugin just ran. Now they have to build, test and ship a separate version for each one. Sometimes you get lucky and can run a plugin in a new build, but plugin developers can't rely on luck and should just build a separate one anyway.

 

What is absolutely incredible, and people often don't think about this, is that they managed to change out everything in C4D but still managed to make all previous scenes still work. How they were able to swap out the entire underlying core system and still ship C4D to everyone is no easy feat. 

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2 hours ago, kbar said:

What is absolutely incredible, and people often don't think about this, is that they managed to change out everything in C4D but still managed to make all previous scenes still work. How they were able to swap out the entire underlying core system and still ship C4D to everyone is no easy feat. 

 

We don't think about it because we don't see the advantages of the new core yet. Cinema 4D performance is still subpar. What we see from the outside is that Maxon stopped adding important features to C4D to focus on the new core (and extra stuff that no one asked for) with no obvious advantage for us. 

I'm pretty sure we would appreciate the effort on the new core if the performance was better. 

 

Right now it has been almost 10 years with no performance increase. It seems the new core is just an excuse to not add new features C4D badly needs.

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I thought the new core did let them just add a bunch of needed features.

 

If someone thinks all the other remaining long-awaited features would have worked on the old core rather than the new one, they should write up a technical report explaining how and send it to Maxon.

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17 minutes ago, BoganTW said:

I thought the new core did let them just add a bunch of needed features.

 

If someone thinks all the other remaining long-awaited features would have worked on the old core rather than the new one, they should write up a technical report explaining how and send it to Maxon.

No need for passive-agressive sarcasm. I'm not a programmer and I'm not saying anything remotely like what you tried to put in my mouth.

So let me elaborate what I tried to say before.

 

It has been 10 years since Maxon started working on the new core and what we can see from the outside is:

 

1) Maxon is not adding the features we asked and that every other main DCC has;

2) The C4D performance still sucks, regardless of the new core;

3) Maxon keeps adding features that no one asked;

4) Maxon have been using the work on the new core as an excuse for not doing 1 (new features asked by the users), even though they do 3 (stuff no one asked).

 

To be fair to Maxon though, S26 seems to be a change in direction and they are finally delivering stuff people asked (e,g. integrated Redshift, modelling improvements), even though in a crippled way (CPU only). 

 

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Make up your mind. You keep saying they’re not doing things people are asking for, then finish by telling us they just did.

 

You also tell us no-one has asked for any of the features they’ve done recently. Pretty much every feature they’ve brought out - character stuff, animation changes, whatever - has been applauded by someone, even if it’s just random dudes on Twitter surprised how much they like seeing Magic Bullet in there. So I don’t know how some people equals no one.

 

But if you’re not a programmer you can clarify then why you see their comments about core development slowing things is an ‘excuse’, rather than an obvious statement of the truth. It’s either true or it isn’t.

 

I do agree they need to speed up general performance though as you’re not the only one who has mentioned being frustrated with that side of things.

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If you have scenes, that feel unnecessary slow, DM me the scene if you can share it. Most of the times it's one of these:

 

- feedback loop setups that cinema does allow, but trigger a recalculation with every click.

- Bugs that falsely report that constantly something changed and things are recalculated.

- improper use of cloner without multiinstance

- some code that just doesn't scale well and is executed in an extreme way

- some character rigs updating the same joint orientation/position through multiple sources (xpresso + IK i.e.) and creating constant reporting of changes with every click in cinema.

 

Regards

Fritz

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1 hour ago, Marcio G. said:

 

We don't think about it because we don't see the advantages of the new core yet. Cinema 4D performance is still subpar. What we see from the outside is that Maxon stopped adding important features to C4D to focus on the new core (and extra stuff that no one asked for) with no obvious advantage for us. 

I'm pretty sure we would appreciate the effort on the new core if the performance was better. 

 

Right now it has been almost 10 years with no performance increase. It seems the new core is just an excuse to not add new features C4D badly needs.

 

What I was getting at is that it didn't go the way of Lightwave. They didn't just abandon C4D as it is and start on a new product from scratch with zero features. We all still got to use C4D while the engine was being replaced underneath.

 

The performance that you are wanting to see is probably specific to some use cases, possibly the hundreds of thousands of objects in a scene issue? Which is being addressed by the work on the scene nodes. There have been lots of improvements throughout C4D, but you can't suddenly give everyone their specific speed increase. 

 

I guess I sit from the perspective of a developer who knows how hard this stuff is and there is nothing you can do to speed up development. People talk about hiring more developers, but that doesn't get the work done any faster, in fact it slows it down.

 

C4D as I see it is a tool box of so many different workflows. You can't please everyone with every release.

 

And just to second what Fritz just said... if you have a scene that is slow, send it to them. Or even post it up here so we can look at it. Could be something that could be solved with a different approach using a more optimized path. Or it could in fact be something that Maxon needs to know about so they can profile it to see what the culprit is.

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