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S26 Cloth improvement's suggestions


thanulee

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Heya,

New dynamics system has great potential, once bugs get addressed and stability kicks in.
I know developers lurk in this forum so I would like to add a list of features that I wanna see in next version that I feel are essential in order to art direct the new system:

- A cache system that is robust and can write caches outside c4d (this is long time lacking). Houdini is a great example in that regard.
- Field force support.
- Rest length in cloth. The most crucial parameter to get detailed cloth and its missing for now.
- Vertex map support in every parameter. These maps are essential in 3 places; bend/rest length and pressure. 
- Connection with cloner object/effectors. Eg. the ability to scale objects.
- Follow position.
- Constraints on rope that don't allow it to spin on it local axis. In Houdini this is an extra set of constraints found on hair instead of strings.

Feel free to add anything that I cannot think of.
I would expect some strong focus on this area for R27 as after fiddling with it a bit (and getting also the same feedback from a lot other people) the cloth is not production ready at the moment and its missing many things. Although is super fast, needs lots of love.

Thanks!

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Hi Thanulee,

 

Thanks for the feedback.

- For caching I suggest using alembic for the moment.

- I don't disagree on rest length control, but could you explain how is it most crucial for cloth?

- nearly every parameter can already be controlled by a map (unfold the parameters > ). Pressure is a volume constraint thus not controllable by a map. You can control the stretchiness of the surface instead if you want areas to stretch by internal pressure.

- twist constraints in rope can be activated with the "curly" option. This constraint however quickly feels like it does nothing with many rope segment just having tiny error in the solve, so you either need very high iterations or just lower resolution lines (reduce spline subdivision).

 

Regards

Fritz

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Hi Fritz,

Thanks for the reply.
- I can live with alembic.
- About rest length this is impossible in c4d: https://www.instagram.com/p/CcxyeHNMReB/
- Definitely missing the pressure vertexmap and animating stretch is not the same thing. In Houdini it simply happens and there must be a way in c4d. Rest parameters are not important imo. Rest length (when added) and pressure are the only ones needed.
- Ok about ropes I guess its not gonna work proper and easy right?

I guess field force and mograph connection are out of the question? Trying to see if it worths checking this system further or stay in Houdini for proper cloth/rope control.

Thanks!

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I will not discuss possible development plans here, so no comment on what feature will or will not be worked on.

 

I find a twitter screenshot a bit lacking in information why you need rest length control to do that image.

 

The rope twist constraint is a single checkbox and you get the constraint added for the same effect as the hair shelve tool in Houdini. Don't understand what's not easy about it. Just gave you further information, which also applies to vellum.

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8 hours ago, nick sho ito said:

Thank you to Thanu for advocating for some of the finer nuances of alternative methods for us in c4d. His explorations in C4d and Houdini are going to be a good resource for the community.


As you see unless I start public posting again nothing will happen. He pretends he doesn't understand why rest length is important and indirectly rejected everything else I said.

And says that he gave us the solution in something which was in his own words semi broken

13 hours ago, Fritz said:

This constraint however quickly feels like it does nothing with many rope segment just having tiny error in the solve



But other than that, 

5 hours ago, Fritz said:

The rope twist constraint is a single checkbox and you get the constraint added for the same effect as the hair shelve tool in Houdini. Don't understand what's not easy about it. Just gave you further information, which also applies to vellum.


This is a total waste of my time as probably Maxon developers are super bored and rude.

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This is not the way to talk about anybody @thanulee !! I think Fritz is owed an apology. He has read your feedback, thanked you for it, asked you to elaborate, which you briefly did, and his latest response seems entirely reasonable to me. Why would you imagine he is pretending anything, and be so disproportionately hostile and rude about someone who is obviously trying to respond as helpfully as permissions allow ??!

 

On a personal note - what incentive do you think this sort of thing offers developers to engage with the public if they are to face this unwarranted hurricane of piss when they do respond ?! Appalling behaviour !

 

CBR

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Do you think I have time to post all these things or explore and help for free?

Very few experienced c4d users are actually trying to help without being beta testers, the majority doesn't bother. The other day, for a similar thread, I had to email support 3 times for a broken feature and post about it here about 10 times as well. And stop acting like he's so cool and im the bad guy. This is getting out of proportions as a lot of people read it and agree with me.:

His responses are indifferent, defensive, in denial and borderline rude. "i dont understand" "its just one button" "I already told you" " i wont comment". 
And this has a history of responses didn't came out of the blue. This is ongoing.

Have you ever run your own business mate? Cause I do and if I ever consider be like this to my clients I will lose them the next day.

But you are right I shouldn't be talking like this to anyone, despite the fact that I am being treated the same way..  I know why you try to side with him. But he can simply not respond if he lacks the social skills maybe he's good at his work but not at responding to people. A normal person would say "yes thank you we ll look into it" and end of story.

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Concluding, yes I won't post again I ll direct talk to people in proper places as it makes more sense than arguing in forums with people that don't even like to hear feedback.

FYI the reason my other colleagues do not post, is this exactly; they all feel pushed away and ignored and they don't wanna get frustrated. Or simply they are not nerds like me that sit after hours and try to solve work problems for everyone.

This post represents the opinion/feedback of many artists I talked to last month about s26 new dynamics. 

And it's one thing debating in forums and another doing actual hands on work daily with demanding clients. Having to switch 10 tools cause your main 3d software cannot complete simple tasks like a cloth without collisions or caches that don't break is a bit dated in 2022.
 

Cheers!

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8 minutes ago, thanulee said:

Concluding, yes I won't post again I ll direct talk to people in proper places as it makes more sense than arguing in forums with people that don't even like to hear feedback.

 

No, I don't want to discourage you from posting - we constantly have threads featuring feedback, and yours are invariably helpful IME, but we just need to not do it couched in the seething anger that seems to surround it ! It is perfectly possible to express even deeply negative feedback without being in the slightest bit rude about it to the people who are engaging with you...

 

CBR

 

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9 hours ago, thanulee said:

His responses are indifferent, defensive, in denial and borderline rude. "i dont understand" "its just one button" "I already told you" " i wont comment". 
And this has a history of responses didn't came out of the blue. This is ongoing.

 You are reading way too much into these comments and are getting emotional about them instead of just taking them as they are. He is just being straight up, to the point. What’s wrong with that? Remember you are talking with people here for whom English is not their main language. 
 

Fritz doesn’t need to be here, he doesn’t need to comment about anything. He probably isn’t in charge of what gets developed. He is just trying to help because he knows about this topic and is providing information how to use it as well as asking for more info to clarify what you actually need. Then you go and attack him? 
 

This is not a MAXON forum. Nobody from MAXON even needs to be here. If they do respond it is on their own time to help.

 

What if someone else replied to you the same as Fritz did? Would I now be rude?

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Wow, what a mistake to give it another try to communicate to you after the first encounter was just the worst experience. Either there is a language barrier (sorry not native English) or you are intentionally trying to read negatives into my responses. I honestly tried to understand why the rest length is so "crucial" and did instantly recognize that it's useful. And on the curly option. It honestly doesn't get easier than a checkbox and it comes with the same set of conditions as it does in vellum, that I tried to help you with, to get a good first experience with the feature. I don't think you are trying to help and your social media rants are borderline slander. You burned all bridges, good bye.

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