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Leaving or staying with C4D for what and why?


Fastbee

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Few people's businesses depend on the capabilities of an upcoming motorcycle model so the fact the no-one complained is meaningless in the context of this thread.

Maybe their business doesn't depend on that, but it is very expensive purchase (close to 20K €) so it is not something people take lightly, but nobody aggressively demanded an answer.

But hey, how come you didn't answer the questions about your business or private life? ;)

@Rick

I pointed out too many times that my opinions are personal but that won't make a single change. You can see it in post from Bonobo even after repetitious post from me throughout this thread and in other topics. He clearly puts an equal sign between me and MAXON and simply can't understand and distinguish me from company. You can post that you don't represent MAXON in huge bold font but it won't help.

Folks, I will repeat what I repeated many times already in earlier pages. Communication policy will probably change. In what scope and when I don't know, but it certainly won't change to full open policy and will once again be a disappointment to forum bullies who will accept only full disclosure. Any posts from MAXON employees or contractors who were dancing on the edge of NDA was greeted with such negativity that it is completely demoralizing to post anything at all. All that those few individuals managed to succeed at is to bring my enthusiasm for running a forum, post answers and scene files for members down.

 

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I just want to point out that HSrdelic's opinions are his own and not those of MAXON.

The people I've spoken to within MAXON, including most of the key decision makers, are all in agreement that our communication practice needs to change.

 

I would also like to point out that it is not just "Cineversity people" that are influencing these decisions.

Rick is the the VP of operations at the MAXON US offices, which represents all of North/South America.

While he will certainly be making sure that all this feedback is presented, as stated, it is a corporate wide discussion.

 

It is totally understandable that much of what he (and others, myself included) is saying can be seen as "platitudes", but at the same time he is also letting us all know that this is a priority topic....and having him continually let us know that the topic is under discussion is far better than complete silence while they discuss future communication.

And @cutman - while I don't have the ability to directly influence a developer presentation, I did forward the request, so it is noted, and as Rick mentioned, it will be a part of further discussion. (that decision is above my paygrade).

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In a lot of posts over  c4d forums are questions about BodyPaint future. With single clear statement "developement stopped"  all those topics and posts are gone...

Customers will buy another software for texturing and all is OK. No other threads, no other posts. This statement cann ´t be worse than 10 years without some significant update of this tool.

( And it can be "fair" to customers who every year waiting for updates to be at the same level as competitive tools on the market...)

For example Mari is strong in these days, but why I will buy Mari when I have BodyPaint (OT: don´t need 2 or 3 cars, why? :-)). Only split of functions, but In good faith we can get superstrong tool again (as was years ago). So.. wait for another release...and for another release...and for another.

Maybe somewhere there starts people´s disappoinment.(and topics,threads and posts...etc)

 

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But hey, how come you didn't answer the questions about your business or private life? ;)

Well, I have no interest in the private lives of anyone at MAXON so that is irrelevant, and my clients know everything they need to know about my business that is relevant to our interactions. And if there's anything else they need to know, they just have to pick up the phone. But again, that is irrelevant, given the different nature of my business.

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In a lot of posts over  c4d forums are questions about BodyPaint future.

I'm not sure if you missed or mis-read my post at the bottom of the previous page... or if I'm misunderstanding you.

BodyPaint development may have stalled for a bit, but is kicking back into gear.

 

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Guest cinemajames

I'm new here. To answer the original Q, i don't get the leave it mentality. Did your job to do MGraphics stop all of a sudden?

No one software package does everything at the highest level. There is no software that is identical to C4D for what it does.

You choose software for the strengths of that software. Each one is strong in certain areas and you grab the right tools for the right job. 

Its not C4D or X. Its C4D and X (whatever you need). Thats why its great to see Houdini/SketchUp and Substance type of integration.

If you are not happy with dev or upgrade features (i understand)...you simply don't upgrade and wait. I'm doing that with some other software but

i'm looking forward to digging into R17 Broadcast now. It was the right time for me.

 

I've been lucky to meet some of the guys from MAXON at trade shows (NAB, Siggraph, GDC). I've always had my Q's addressed and i don't look

at them as so mysterious but i know everyone can't go to these type of shows.  I don't expect every company

to tell me all the details of its business but i don't see MAXON the way they are portrayed in most of the negative comments here based on my experience.

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Any posts from MAXON employees or contractors who were dancing on the edge of NDA was greeted with such negativity that it is completely demoralizing to post anything at all. All that those few individuals managed to succeed at is to bring my enthusiasm for running a forum, post answers and scene files for members down.

First thing first, to be self-critical and admit that you or other MAXON employees are awful to communicate would be already a huge step in the right direction. Not to be a good communicator doesn't mean you are incompetent (you still remain one of my best, if not the best, C4D teacher), I'm not myself a very good seller so I prefer to let another person to do it for me. It's very true that most of MAXON Germany employees intervention in forums were not very convincing and that could be demoralizing for both side indeed, we understand there could be some cultural differences as well as language misinterpretations. So just take time to choose the right people for the job, personally I see that Rick Barrett and Jean-François Yelle have this natural ability to communicate. 

edit: why Rick and Jean-François? just because they already said that MAXON already screwed things up sometimes. 

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That won't happened. They're pretty much locked into a 12 month / September delivery cycle. All hell would break loose as people's MSA's would have expired and they hadn't received the next version. What's coming in R18 is already nailed down.\

They're not locked into anyting if they don't want to be. They control 100% of the process. If they want to make a one-time extension of people's MSAs who purchased version x or y, and they want to add four months to the dev cycle to include something not currently planned, they can. I agree with you they most likely *won't*, based on past precedent. But the past doesn't lock them into anything, if we're being honest. They can choose to change their policies, schedule, what they charge... whatwever they want. :)

 

I just want to point out that HSrdelic's opinions are his own and not those of MAXON.

The people I've spoken to within MAXON, including most of the key decision makers, are all in agreement that our communication practice needs to change.

 

Rick thanks again for posting so consistently in here lately and engaging us on the issues. I think some people are beating a dead horse at this point, mentioning changes they know darn well will take time to make (starting this summer, ending whenever they end) but don't let them sway you. Most people, even people disappointed with R17 as a full upgrade, appreciate your presence and that MAXON is going to actively change the way they communicate (hopefully including general communications about future product / roadmap, because that's really the litmus test in this scenario.

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They're not locked into anyting if they don't want to be. They control 100% of the process. If they want to make a one-time extension of people's MSAs who purchased version x or y, and they want to add four months to the dev cycle to include something not currently planned, they can. I agree with you they most likely *won't*, based on past precedent. But the past doesn't lock them into anything, if we're being honest. They can choose to change their policies, schedule, what they charge... whatwever they want.

In all honesty, the release cycle is pretty much locked in. There's no way to extend people's MSAs at no cost as you're suggesting - that would actually border on being illegal. Your MSA fees are deferred and recognized over a 12 month period. My understanding is that we can deliver whatever "service" to MSA customers we want within that 12 month period because we're recognizing revenue from them in that period, but we can't deliver service when we're not recognizing revenue. We could potentially defer over a longer period, but we don't, and I'm not sure if there's a way to change that deferral once it's started. I know you're tired of hearing this, but it's all Enron's fault. Companies that aren't public don't have to worry about it (we're public by nature of our relationship to Nemetschek).

But the release schedule and boring accounting details are beside the point. It's a good thing that MAXON has to deliver something at least once a year, and it's important that MAXON communicates with you and delivers something in line with expectations.

 

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I am staying with C4D because I think there will be an interesting update in the near future give or take a release. I am comfortable with the program, I love the workflow and as a hobbyist it works best for me.

@Rick, I appreciate all the communication you are and are trying to do with us.  I feel for you, in some cases you are in a no win situation no matter what you say or don't say. Have fun in Germany, if you time the corporate visit right you'll be there for OctoberFest. :lol:

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In all honesty, the release cycle is pretty much locked in. There's no way to extend people's MSAs at no cost as you're suggesting - that would actually border on being illegal. Your MSA fees are deferred and recognized over a 12 month period. My understanding is that we can deliver whatever "service" to MSA customers we want within that 12 month period because we're recognizing revenue from them in that period, but we can't deliver service when we're not recognizing revenue. We could potentially defer over a longer period, but we don't, and I'm not sure if there's a way to change that deferral once it's started. I know you're tired of hearing this, but it's all Enron's fault. Companies that aren't public don't have to worry about it (we're public by nature of our relationship to Nemetschek).

But the release schedule and boring accounting details are beside the point. It's a good thing that MAXON has to deliver something at least once a year, and it's important that MAXON communicates with you and delivers something in line with expectations.

 

The problem is the MSA. No MSA no need for a yearly dev cycle. I completely understand why MAXON/Nemetschek use the MSA model. It's a guaranteed revenue stream. But at the same time has led to several mediocre releases and is the sole reason I have not renewed my commercial license in several years. I can't stand the yearly dev cycle and am aware that a lot of software makers follow this model. But at least (for now) with modo I can skip releases and not be penalized when I do choose to upgrade.

I prefer C4D over modo but the expense/value is not there for me. BTW, thank you for being visible in the forum. You helped me out with a serial number problem I had several years ago and you took care of it as soon as you saw my message on CG Society. And I think it was on a weekend. I have always considered you one of the good guys.

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