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Leaving or staying with C4D for what and why?


Fastbee

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I dont understand people who ask MAXON to reveal parts of their roadmap and talk as if the competition does that. I went to the Modo forums and ask them if they will implement motion tools like Mograph or a title tool... and I got no answer from The Foundry. Nada.

You see only what you want to see... Autodesk is purchasing Mash, and showing videos about the future of Modeling.. but thats it, they wont answer you anything they dont show you, in fact they will lie to you, like they did when all softimage users were told "everything would be alright" and at the same time moved the entire developer team to Singapure before kill XSI. And remember, C4D, did show ahead of time Houdini integration and Cineware.

What would be the equivalent of bodypaint in Autodesk?.. oh right...please, go ahead to Autodesk forums and ask them about the future of Mudbox.

Having said that, this is exactly why MAXON requires an official forum. Srek and Hdrselic got burned and tired, and rightly so. An employer dedicated to forums cant have that luxury. An employer, like us, has to suck it up when your client demands deadlines you cant deliver.

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I agree and it didn't need a committee meeting or a plane trip to Germany to discuss whether a public comment could be made.

As stated earlier by Rick, the meeting in Germany is not to figure out if a public comment can be made, but to make sure that the entire company is on the same page regarding how such communication will be handled.

Could this be done over the phone...sure...but also remember there is a NINE hour time difference between Germany and California. This makes phone calls fairly difficult for the people involved (These guys all have families), especially on something so important. (Yes, they could work overtime...and they already do.)

Email could also be an option...but I'm sure we all know how difficult in can be to have a nuanced conversation between a group of people via email.

So...the most effective way to create a proper dialogue between all offices is to meet at a single location, in the same timezone, and talk things through.

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Why does it have to be a battle to get a reasonable level of communication going?

It is a battle because we can only manage expectations for what we can deal with immediately.

The current expectation we can manage (with current policy) is keeping you all informed that the communication issue is a top priority...yet this is continually refuted by the people we are trying to communicate with.

So, in this case, we either stop letting you all know that it is something we are working on and continue radio silence until there is a change, or we continue to let let you know that it is something that is actively being addressed.

Really, the only acceptable option at this point is to continue to let you all know that this is something that will be addressed.

(And yes, object evaluation is a huge undertaking. HUGE.)

 

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That the genius programmers who started C4D have long gone fishing and there's a bunch of second raters left who think the perpetual MSA payments are only for buggy amateur level features, repackaged 3rd party plugins and content browser presets, you know, the stuff that's been served up for the last few releases.

In fact as far as I know those original programmers still work for Maxon. I can only assume they have been locked away in Maxon's dungeon for a long time and have been working on a new core. Some of their talented developers have unfortunately left them.

Hsrdelic / Hrvoje - if some of the posts are personal attacks then you need to moderate them. While I still have moderation permissions here it's probably inappropriate for me to moderate this topic. I actually agree that a few posts have been over the top. I'm fine with some very robust discussion and criticism of Maxon as it's more that warranted but there's no place for personal attacks.

Cutman - excellent post and I totally agree with you.

Someone mentioned asking The Foundry about Motions Graphics coming in Modo and not getting an answer. The Foundry doesn't release their roadmap either but they do engage with their customers. This topic here they specifically asked about Motion Graphics so sounds like they are definitely interested in what people want regarding Motion Graphics. Yes they dropped the ball with the 901 release and it has been buggy. I'm still working quite happily with it despite the occasional crash and bug. Hopefully future service packs will resolve these issues.

Those Digital Tutors Modo for Cinema 4D users are available for free on Vimeo here. Watch it on Vimeo to get links to the rest:

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Cutman... just switch to a different software, you clearly have some rage problems... 

 

R17 has fixed a lot of workflow issues. And so far from what i see hasn't broken anything *cough* multi editing of reflect mats *cough*

 

MAXON is a company in a free market, it can choose to reveal as much or as little as it wants. it can switch to producing toilet paper if it wants to. 

Your language has gone to some ridiculous level, as if you are talking to someone who owes you something and you are entitled to your candy, like a fat spoilt kid to a crumbling mother... 

@hSrdelic: Don't be discouraged by the minority. :) we all love you. 

 

Well said Vozzz.  

Let's just do a short recap of what happened in this, lengthy 24 page topic.

Some members were simply disappointed when R17 came out since they didn't find the feature set to be appealing to them, which is absolutely fine and they were very vocal and certainly expressed their negativity in this forum like in no other forum - fine also, since Cafe allows heated discussions. Then some members expressed their dissatisfaction on MAXON company policy of not disclosing it's development plans and not communicating with it's customers as they would like too which is also completely valid. The problematic part is when some members started to conduct in manner which is completely unprofessional and impolite, and that roughly sums up to attacking MAXON employees or contractors acting in their own in this forum, simply trying to pass along or share information which they can, bring some calm to things and hinting that MAXON is in fact, well aware of everything mentioned. This extended to labeling MAXON employees and contractors as detached, unfit, incompetent, stupid, unaware, fanboys and even unable to communicate at all. It is really nice to be able to offend hundreds of people that work for MAXON by questioning their intelligence, skillset, education and social abilities hidden behind computer screen - really cool.
That coupled with ultimatums and even bulletin points on what, how, or when a company should do something, along with juvenile nickname inventions for me and Srek, wild speculations about software development and other matters into which they have practically zero insight and knowledge, but that hasn't stopped them debating about things they have no clue about. And all that because of..?

Because of simple company policy which does not reveal it's roadmap or development plans.

And I repeatedly said, that company policy will change, but I don't know to what extent. So folks, even though Patrick, Rick, Bernd and me personally gave you maximum amount of information we could without breaking company rule, and went outside our job description to ensure you, even by putting our professional credibility on the line, and even hinting things that are bordering on breaking NDA that is simply not enough. How do you guys think that makes us feel? I can speak only for myself, but it feels quite bad. So all my knowledge, years of freelancing, training line, thousands of posts on cafe where I helped members with guidance and scene files, helping running the Cafe, buying it from Nigel when he decided to step down, having insight into development simply doesn't give me enough credibility here to even make someone at least to think a bit before posting and using me as a punching bag because he can't simply accept facts and is looking to vent out personal frustrations on someone he believes to be representing MAXON.
So, at the end of the topic, even with confirmation on what is being asked for is delivered, and the fact that communication strategy will change, it seems that some members are simply looking for anything they can interpret as negative in posts and then continue with behavior which I can only describe as bullying, not feedback as stated by Cutman who simply fails to understand that you can't pass experiences from one company to another and use same business model. There could be numerous specifics and circumstances which render that impossible but somehow that is slipping his mind.
 

So, where does that leave me? I can't and will never reveal development plans, strategy or roadmaps, nor I decide on how communication is or how will be done. All that I could possibly do I already did. I called MAXON product management to this thread, gave all the answers I could from personal standpoint, let the topic open even when it was obvious it is just a frustration&bashing thread. In return I was crucified for defending a company right to choose what it will reveal or not, while taking in insults and attacks ranging from juvenile comments to career change propositions -  thanks for that guys, really cool :thumbsup:

This all leaves me with very bad taste and seriously drops my enthusiasm about this forum. It may be that my English is simply not good enough to explain my position, therefore I will simply excuse myself and never again in future try to help, convey information, collect data, put things in motion, drop hints or in general go way outside my job description to benefit this community and all C4D users.

 

 

 

your post is disheartening because you have gone way beyond trying to help us not in the loop users with information you can release without violating your NDA.  Your English is perfect to explain your position, it is a couple of posters who refuse to accept what has been presented within the confines of the NDA and most likely revel in creating a poisonous atmosphere.  

Please dear friend, you have done a great thing here at the Cafe don't let the likes of Cutman and his ilk spoil your decision to advance the Cafe forum.  I appreciate all you, Rick, Srek and the others have done during these tumultuous C4D times.

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I think this thread should be closed and if people want to open topic-specific threads like "MAXON Communication practices" or "viewport shortcomings" or whatever else, they should. Time to get more specific and keep the topics that people are concerned about separate and focused. This thread has been run in several different directions now — people have short memories after some days pass, followed by misattributions of what others are thinking / demanding (on both sides of the issue) followed by hyperbole, threats to stop participating, etc. Let's give it a rest and refocus.

I would also encourage Hsrdelic to lock any new, vague threads like "why C4D disappoints me" because we'll end up in exactly the same place. Either someone has a very specific point to make and that specific topic can carry itself, or not. Let's improve the signal:noise here.

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Exactly.. asking people if they want to stay or leave makes no sense.. first.. no one "leaves" something, because you dont magically lose the knowledge once you use another software. In fact, its healthy that you learn different workflows, and it should be encouraged, because even if C4D had the best 3d painting ever, you would find another software with something better or a workflow that suits the way your brain its wired. Since 3D kiwi advertised Modo, I tried to understand it, I really tried...I even did a human tutorial and was advancing very fast, but even if I know its one of the best modellers, I just dont "click" with Modo (I'll try this weekend one more time if I still have a demo license active), or Houdini... who, from I read, completedly obliterates MAXON, The Foundry, Blender and Autodesk. So.. its a fact Hou can do a lot of really great things.. but I click with > C4D, softimage, zbrush.. Thats it.

Anyway, good luck to all who want to try more workflows, please do so, instead of complaining here. And please, come back with ideas in how to improve C4D based in your experiences if you still like C4D. That would help us all.

Remember guys, we are artists, and these softwares are tools. Its nice to like one tool, but its weird when the passion you have for your tool makes you disrespectful towards human beings.

 

edit.. I also like Maya.

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I dont understand people who ask MAXON to reveal parts of their roadmap and talk as if the competition does that. I went to the Modo forums and ask them if they will implement motion tools like Mograph or a title tool... and I got no answer from The Foundry. Nada.

You see only what you want to see... Autodesk is purchasing Mash, and showing videos about the future of Modeling.. but thats it, they wont answer you anything they dont show you, in fact they will lie to you, like they did when all softimage users were told "everything would be alright" and at the same time moved the entire developer team to Singapure before kill XSI. And remember, C4D, did show ahead of time Houdini integration and Cineware.

What would be the equivalent of bodypaint in Autodesk?.. oh right...please, go ahead to Autodesk forums and ask them about the future of Mudbox.

Having said that, this is exactly why MAXON requires an official forum. Srek and Hdrselic got burned and tired, and rightly so. An employer dedicated to forums cant have that luxury. An employer, like us, has to suck it up when your client demands deadlines you cant deliver.

There is a thread on the modo forum started by a Foundry employee asking for user feedback regarding motion graphics. At there very least we know The Foundry are interested in mographs.

Sorry about that. I see 3dkiwi addressed the issue.

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There is a thread on the modo forum started by a Foundry employee asking for user feedback regarding motion graphics. At there very least we know The Foundry are interested in mographs.

Sorry about that. I see 3dkiwi addressed the issue.

yes, I didnt saw the thread before posting, that was my bad.. here in this thread we got two answers: MAXON is asking user feedback about bodypaint, and MAXON is asking user feedback about an official forum.

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I'm fine if the is topic is closed down. It has pretty much run its course and people need to get on and do some 3D.

Re learning Modo and not getting it. To be honest, it can take a while. Best to watch some tutorials. Problem is, there are some just awful ones. Look out for ones by Pat Crandley and Peter Stammbach. (links are to their Youtube videos) The Peter Stammbach ones could be very useful for people sticking with C4D but want to know how to resolve common modelling issues. Most of the stuff he demonstrates in Modo can be replicated in C4D.

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I would also encourage Hsrdelic to lock any new, vague threads like "why C4D disappoints me" because we'll end up in exactly the same place. 

I disagree, we are on the lounge section of C4D cafe not in China or Russia. Beginning with this kind of censorship could be even worse for MAXON image and communication now that this forum is owned by a MAXON employee. I remember 3DMax was in the same situation of frequent bashing not so long ago, Autodesk solution was not to close threads but to address users needs and it's much better now.

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I think this topic is going around in circles. It's not censorship if there's nothing new being added. 618 posts!

R17 boxes are shipping, some people have left, some people have re-upped their MSA's, Rick's headed to Germany, MAXON is aware of their users' disgruntlement and are (hopefully) going to start communicating a bit more with users, Kiwi loves modo, maya has cool stuff, the world still turns.

 

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