Macgyver

Just a quick point of view from me, because the topic recently came up: I’m one of those Blender converts still hanging around here being angry at Maxon and McGravran. The reason is not that I’m not happy with Blender. Blender is great since v2.80. But it’s by no means perfect. Cinema 4D does some things exceptionally well, like the object manager and interface in general. For anyone really invested in this, it’s not so easy to just leave. As several others in this thread said, learning Cinema 4D was a massive, decade long investment of money and time. I have several perpetual versions up until R21 still around and still being used for older customer projects. Why not use them? They did cost real money. I was a longtime MSA customer. I was really attached to the spirit of Maxon. It is difficult to get the rug pulled from under you by a company one relied on for almost decades. It feels abusive to have paid the MSA for years for the most expensive version and then being treated like shit unless converted to a subscription. And to be honest: It’s a little heartbreaking seeing the software I learned CGI on being neglected for many many years in the productive parts – and on the other hand resources are put in areas that are clearly there to push people even harder to subscriptions (Content Library, Online Activation etc.). The promise that finally all the neglected things will get updated is now many years old. The new core was promised years ago. Everybody has a different breakpoint where one doesn’t believe these promises anymore. Some people in this thread still believe R27 will finally be it. I wonder when they will give up… The thing is: yeah, converting to Blender was not easy and is still an ongoing thing. Some things are better, some worse. Not everything is rosy over there. But even not paying another Euro to Maxon, I’m still invested in this program. R21 will occasionally be opened in the coming years. The process of learning a different program is not done over two weekends. No matter if it is Houdini, Maya or Blender. I’m just finishing first customer projects in Blender after ~1 year of learning. I will definitely be back here when S26/R27 comes around, still hoping the cheerful, customer centric spirit in Maxon is still there deeply hidden within the company they have become; and some of their hostile moves will be reversed—or the new core will finally pay off. Maybe this day i will buy another perpetual. But until then it’s just prudent and healthy to seriously look at other solutions. R21 will not forever keep working (and it’s slow compared to more modern programs). But for some over here this just can’t be a clear cut, never looking back. It’s sad. I’m a little sad. Yes, it’s just another company, just another software in a sea of great CGI programs. But Maxon/C4D were different, long ago. The anger at McGravran is clearly grounded in all the bad changes that either directly were his cause or coincide with his taking duty where he may or may not be to blame (endless core rewrite) I tend to the later; I think the core rewrite is just taking many years longer than they anticipated. But the hostile business changes for paying longtime customers are to put at his feet.

Thanks a lot. Good summary. I paid Adobes subscription for years for my job until I realized nothing important was really added since CS6 and other software is now good enough to use for professional projects. I canceled my Adobe Subscription over a year ago and didn’t look back. Really happy with the saved ~1000 Euros. I’m using my spare time this fall to convert all my professional work from Cinema 4D to Blender. So courses like this are really appreciated. Do you have a direct link? Thanks a lot! Edit: Got it: https://www.udemy.com/course/the-blender-encyclopedia/

this feels absolutely correct. R14 was great. R15–R20 less and less progress. Aren’t they using the “new core” argument for almost a decade now? I happily paid my MSA waiting patiently for this “new core” and the promised land that would follow. There must come a day when even the biggest fanboy realizes: there’s not much substance. Sure, the new core will come, but that doesn’t mean any of the improvements asked for for more than a decade will materialize anytime soon, if ever.

Wow, really nothing new. Just wow. Who knew they could do even less. Subscriptions really were Cinema 4Ds end. I’m really sad, but glad I didn’t renew my sub. McGravran really destroyed this great company. I’m just really sad. So good memories about Cinema 4D 😢

Hi Rick, yes, I installed the right help-files. I just tried for several hours now. I deleted all Preference files in my library, deleted the MAXON folder in Applications and reinstalled Cinema 4D. In a clean installation I unchecked the relevant checkmarks in C4Ds preferences and restarted (with the unzipped help in the help-folder within the MAXON Cinema 4D R21 folder). It doesn’t work offline. The help-window stays completely blank. Another thing: I also tried also installing the english help-files and changed the interface to english. I also restarted Cinema 4D. Also doesn’t work. Any ideas? Or other people on MacOS 10.14 Mojave with this problem?

How does this work? I installed the update. I unchecked the online checkbox (and before that the external browser checkbox) I downloaded the correct language help package from Maxons website and unzipped it into the help-folder within my MAXON Cinema4D R21 folder. Nothing. I checked the folderstructure inside the help folder and made sure it looks like help/de help/files help/icns help/redirect.html … I restarted Cinema. But as soon as I disconnect the network, my help-window stays blank when I use the contextual help on anything. I’m on a Mac. Environment variables are not a thing here. Any Ideas?

Hi Rick, I don’t know your internal system for editing the help, but I know a thing or two about web-development. Actually it sounds like your current internal system needs improvement. You need a custom Content Management System for your online-help anyway. It’s not that difficult to build in a way to spit out a set of static html-files from the whole project. Then this package has just to be wrapped into an update for Cinema 4D that shows up on startup as it did in the past. This could possibly even be automated to a sensible degree. What I’m saying is: It’s not rocket science to get the files for the offline help out of an online-CMS. I actually know programmers who can do stuff like this with custom-CMSs. If some people like the online help, why not make a checkbox in C4Ds preferences? If checked, the internal (!) help browser loads the whole bundle of files offline into the Cinema 4D-directory. If not, the internal(!!!) help browser refers to a url. Both, the downloaded html-files and the online version could refer to the same CSS-file (how it looks) and be lean and mean. Or look at intentionally different CSS-files for a darker colour-theme within Cinema 4D. No rocket science. The system just has to be build (or extended) one time. Actually, if you need somebody in Germany who can build the web-part of this system, write me PM (if this is a thing with this forum software…).

They are working hard to destroy that, too. Look at the help-system thread:

Well, switching in 3D has a learning curve but the concepts are the same. I hated Blender every time the last 10 years I tried it. Surprisingly Blender 2.8 made huge changes in all areas needed and it – for the first time – feels like a serious piece of pro-software. Hell, they even abanondend their bone-headed select-with-rightclick with a user-choice. And ironically, Blender 2.8 came out the day, when R21 was introduced. To your last point: MoGraph is far ahead now, but with Maya it shows it’s possible to put some steam behind features to go head to head with MAXON.

Hi Rick, I appreciate you taking your time to listen to us. I’ll try to answer your questions as sincere as possible. 1) Definitely the first option: I honestly don’t want the help to be polluted with video tutorials and community stuff. C4Ds help has been the best in the industry. That’s because of it’s direct accessibility in the software but also because it has been written in a very clear and “close to the user” language style. And I don’t need it to change constantly. If the new features were added every year – as has been the case in the past – great! I’m playing with R21 since yesterday morning and I really start to even feel the loading times of a not local help-system. It’s not super-long. I have a fast connection in the office. But it adds up over the day and feels much longer than an offline help. Don’t get me wrong: I LOVE the Cineversity content and was very angry to have that not anymore included in the future as a die hard perpetual user. But Cineversity-style content has nothing to be in the help-system, as far as I’m concerned. Make an additional Button or tab in the internal help-browser that optionally loads Cineversity content, but don’t mix them, please. 2) No, the lockable/floatable window (that doesn’t open a new tab/window every time I click a help-item) is very important to me, but the disadvantages of online-only outweigh even this. To better understand, look at my use-case: When I’m in the office, where I have a good internet connection, I’m working all day on customer projects with proven tools I know how to use. I very seldom try the latest features on a running client project with a tight budget and deadline. In this situation I need the helpsystem only 5%–15% of my overall “help-usage-time”. Where I often use the help a lot is when I have time to try out (learn!) the new features. That’s unfortunately mostly on long flights (no or VERY BAD expensive internet) on long trainrides accross the country (mostly no or very, very slow internet) or on vaccation on an island or in the mountains (yes, really!) with very slow internet. The second thing to consider in this situation is: In my office (working for clients) I have 2 big monitors in front of me. In the latter situations, where I acutally need the help-system the most (planes, trains, vacation) I’m only on my 15" MacBook Pro. In this situation, a lockable/floating help within Cinema 4D is a life-saver. It’s so annoying to constantly change back and forth between a browser with a new tab for EVERY f***ing help-link I clicked, and Cinema 4D. Last but not least: It’s a minor annoyance, but it’s the new-tab/window for every help-item I click in c4D. I’m not navigating the help like a webpage. I try something in Cinema 4D, then I need the help on a specific input-field, read it, change some values and then I need help on another one and click it’s help, getting a new window in another software, the browser… and on and on. I feel it’s lost a little with MAXON why their users considered the Cinema 4D help so much better than anyone elses help. In contrast, the Adobe-style online help is hated by so many people I know and work with. We don’t even bother looking for a solution there but just google it. The reason why the Cinema 4D help was(!) so great is not just one thing: not just the writing style or the (up until now) awesome, direct integration in the software, but the sum of it’s parts. I hope that clarifies our huge frustration and anger when we discovered this very real digression of a once great software package.

+1 good idea. I’d recommend doing the same for all plugins working with these older versions. That will at least give us the peace of mind for some years to watch what they do in future versions. And a nice security net while doing some testprojects with Maya and Blender.

Yeah, and that’s why they need to hear this again and again from as many people as possible, so that Ralph understands there are not only a handful of disturbed souls mourning the loss of the helpsystem.

I found this at MAXON: https://support.MAXON.net/index.php?lang=en_US Seems to be the official place to vent your frustration about this boneheaded and outright stupid decision. Please guys, go there and file a ticket. They need to know we hate this: https://support.MAXON.net/index.php?lang=en_US

Really??? There are so many places Cinema 4D is used on a laptop without internet access: planes, long train rides... Places where an uncomplicated help access is especially important. your new online help is substantially slower. That’s because it’s loading a webpage. The loading time adds up over a working day. In R20 the help is instantly there. and you completely ignored all my other points. Thanks for clarifying that MAXON completely lost touch to its customers. It’s now clear as day to me that the MSA for R21 was the last time MAXON got any money from me.

unfortunately yes. The longer I play with this turd R21, I regret having payed the MSA this year. I should have saved the money.

Oh boy, so they not only don’t give us anything substantial with R21 but they even take away stuff that made Cinema 4D better than the other guys?! 😪

Hi guys, I’m not sure if this is a bug – and therefore if I am in the right subforum. C4Ds helpsystem is the best in the industry. For years I wished something like this was available in Adobes stuff. Anyways: The helpsystem seems to be broken in R21. It keeps opening the help in the systembrowser when I right-click an item and use the help feature at the bottom of the context-menu. It used to be a Cinema 4D native window that could be docked in the interface or kept floating above the application windows. That’s not possible with a normal webbrowser. I’m sure MAXON has at least a setting to restore the previous behaviour. But I can’t find the setting. Any ideas?

That’s actually a pretty simple technical reason: They can’t. Up to and including R20 they use serial numbers. Serial numbers are valid within the installation and up to R20 don’t validate online. They can’t revoke your serial. The whole system is offline with no point for MAXON to intervene after they gave you your serial. You could interchange your serial with someone else and they couldn’t know or do something about it. From R21 on, they completely abandoned this system. It’s online-activation only, for all types of licences. The licence information is stored solely on MAXONs servers. It’s as simple as that.

Well, you obviously don’t understand our concerns or don’t bother to. Listing publicly stated facts from MAXON doesn’t do a lot to ease the concerns people have.

Ist ja auch ein kleiner Unterschied, ob man eventual oder eventually sucht. Egal, gehört hier nicht rein. Back to topic.

Eventually ist ein sogenannter false friend: klingt einem deutschen Wort sehr ähnlich, hat aber nichts mit dem deutschen eventuell zu tun ;-) er meint „schließlich/letztenendes“.

Because: If they take the MAXON offer to go sub at a very good price for two years, they will pay way, WAY MORE after those two years. If they take the opportunity to get a cheap perpetual licence for R21, their only option in the future to get a newer version is a subscription (at signifantly higher price than their former MSA) or upgrade at significantly higher costs than a Prime upgrade has been in the past. However you slice it: They’ll pay much, much more after two years. Edit: And with all subscription options, those former MSA customers loose access to the software they paid more for when they stopp paying. What was not the case for them as MSA customers. But why am I making a case for Prime/Broadcast/Visualise customers here. I have enough problems on my own as a MSA Studio customer

Just to be sure nobody thinks that’s the abstract fear people who want to buy perpetual have with online-activation. The problem is not MAXON closing shop but deciding to not activate perpetual licences after 3 years anymore, just because – you know – pushing customers to upgrade or subscribe etc. This particular problem boils down to: In the future, even if you buy perpetual, MAXON controls if you’re allowed to use your license.

I have the feeling some people have to be reminded that *adding* the option of subscription is a good thing. The huge problem here is everything thats taken away from Studio-MSA owners —> the future perpetual-licensees. People like me (MSA Studio) are royally effed in a number of ways. I’m happy for students who can now go in with a subscription to wet their feet. I’m happy for those who don’t mind ~100$/month rent because they need Cinema 4D for only 2–3 months. (and by the way, I also don’t care about Prime MSA owners getting a mayor update for the same price. Although I’m not sure they’ll be happy after the first two years are over.) I, as a MSA-customer with Studio feel treated extremely bad by MAXON. I know, I’ll get R21 with my current MSA. But there must be changes made to some decisions within this next year or I will need to make changes after R21 (that maybe slowly migrating to other packages, while using R20/R21 as long as they run).

Uh, for me the CV Plugins are absolutely essential. I definitely don’t want a subscription. Loosing Cineversity after my MSA expires would totally suck big time. I think all customers, especially Perpetual-upgraders should have access to CV. Why not bundle CV with every upgrade for a year in addition to a stand alone subscription.