renegade

Checked my MSA from July 2019: Thank you for renewing your MSA Subscription. You'll be receiving another year of benefits, including free upgrades and access to Cineversity. So, I expect a free upgrade to r22 as it falls within the year. Simple as that.

It's pretty random. And not even with complex meshes. I will just select something and it crashes. In general it is mostly time related, it works well for a few hours (3 to 6 hrs), then crash! I did some settings changes MAXON sent but no luck. Meanwhile, none of my other apps crash at all (ie Adobe CC, etc.) Keep sending bug reports but with r22 am I now stuck twisting in the wind? With no bug fix in sight? Hence the crankiness.

I think it is just group therapy (anger management)! I am especially cranky because C4D on Catalina (which I am forced to use because of my 2019 Mac Pro) is crashing randomly with no answer in sight from MAXON. This is the r21 that I "own" that will be left as a bugfest. I can't see them fixing r21 now at all - and I don't want a subscription piece of software, I paid full price for a full year MSA in August 2019. They also seem to say there will never be a full buy option. P.S. With most TV / Movie production shut down I think a lot of subscriptions are about to fall off.

Hmmm... so my MSA got me 6 months of r21 (which is a bit buggy on my Mac Pro). So that means no updates, fixes for r21. The option is to convert to subscription but lose ownership of r21. What a deal! I have to check k the language of my MSA but I thought it covered any updates until July 2020 for me - have to see the legal language. I 'should' get a free update to r22... 'should.' But who knows... Thanks MAXON...

Dave I know the main point is keep us happy while this marketing plan goes through. Offer beers, friendly responses, etc. I’ve been in the meetings before where suckering the user base is a typical strategy, so nothing new to see here. It may not be obvious to some people, but this is the friendly face of corporate, while they herd you into a little box, and pick your pockets. The truth is, unless MAXON/Nemechek (sp?) get hurt on the balance sheets, there will be no good path for longtime Studio owners. But, I think you do have a way to hedge your bets to quiet the backlash and grumbling. Just offer the studio users who paid full price a yearly perpetual on every version going forward (we paid at least 3,500 to get in that club). You can even offer it to those who are willing pay the entry cost of 3,500 going forward - hell, raise it to 4,000 as an entry fee to this special club. This is actually a win-win for you. Anyone doing subscription will balk at the 4k - and those of us who have done it, well, you will buy a ton good will - not a cheap commodity nowadays- and it give you 2 streams of constant cashflow. Also you barely need to do much coding in the database, just one additional entry to cover this - a few days work at best. Then you'll have some good will back. That’s just good management. And a good contingency. Anyway, a ‘beer’ ain’t gonna buy most of us pros off, it’s good PR ploy for the hobbyists, but not for anyone in actual business. It reminds me of Lawyers being nice to their clients while they drain them of cash. Hilarious manipulation tactics. I knew a lawyer who bought a client and Hermes scarf (after they billed them over 400k) - she literally thought they were her friends (not the cutthroat sharks that they are). Hilarious. To cut right to it, we have a bottom line too, as well as planning for the future. Just was looking at Maya Bifrost (quite amazing - and actually useful!) You are going to have to put super serious effort into features really fast - need to see this by December 2019, make some that are actually useful in the ‘real world.’ For what we do, we make blood and tissue, and real mechanical objects. We need smoke and jet exhausts. We need water, and lighting effects - (sidenote: an oddball case, but the lens effects can be very useful (we're doing a job showing fiber optics)). Don’t want to have to do that in AE when you actually have lens effects built into C4D -but it’s just a million years old now. And we need better meshes throughout - we need them now - I know it’s possible because almost ever other pro 3D app makes better meshes. And features like dancing ‘gloop’ and stupid fractal patterns may intrigue the hobbyist - but no one will pay money for that garbage. Not in the real world. Final note: If you really wanted to sucker us, r21 should have had a bunch of killer features. It was a bad strategic move to throw this subscription initiative at us with a ‘meh’ release. Not smart at all. And Bifrost looks really good - and useful! Anyway, good luck, you know the deal I am sure. Make your users happy with good product, killer features this year, and the money will follow. Years of experience show that flash in the pan nonsense may work for a while, but it always fails in the end. And Adobe had a stranglehold on the various industries - with no competition - that's why they were able to pull it off. Not the same paradigm here. I may be a bit rough, but I’m telling you the truth.

Well I can download my perpetual r21 - but not that excited. Especially with broken plugins. On CGTalk they say the denoiser doesn't work well with animations (they said it causes blotchiness)- that was a feature I thought I might like. I'm trying to be interested but I guess I'm on r20 until they add something better to the mix. Still wish they 'd get better algorithms for creating geometry (like other apps out there). I mean, it's a computer program, it is supposed to do the tedious work making clean meshes - not me. I feel just "meh" about it all. C'mon MAXON, don't make us cheat on you.

I think they are full of the rah-rah subscriber kool-aid right now. It's actually delusional. They think they're Adobe, but as I said before, MAXON is not Adobe. 1.) 3D software is very niche, unlike most Adobe offerings which offer you a suite most people can figure out how to use very quickly for MUCH less money. 2.) Adobe actually charges a true month to month fee (not a yearly that is $750+ US lump sum). 3.) There are many competitive 3D apps for less, and in the case of blender, free. 4.) Just read how one company who bought some full C4D Studio seats are going to go back to Maya as it is cheaper and they feel ripped off by this new plan. 5.) MAXON broke all the plugins, again - and after they did it in r20. 6.) Did I mention niche? This is not software everyone can use - it takes years to get fast enough at it to make money - and really, how much demand is there for 3D? A huge number can justify photoshop, or indesign or premiere, or illustrator. This year i think they'll get a user spike. Which may last thru a second year - and then fall off. And in 3 years I bet MAXON will be running around with their hair on fire, trying to shore up a truly dedicated user base (like they have now), as many companies fall of the subscription wagon, or reduce the number of seats they maintain. I feel sorry for MAXON if they had some fast-talking consultants come and give them a pitch, promising huge cash windfalls. And really, I think there is some serious delusional thinking at the top of the pyramid. The road is littered with apps that once had it all and then got co-opted by the 'planning' of brain-dead MBA's. Suggestion: Keep the MSA for those who paid full price. And you can still offer the subscription options. This isn't rocket science to program something like this - it's just a database ultimately. And no one will be upset if you do this. Hell, very few people outside of the 3D world have even heard of Cinema 4D. I asked a bunch friends of mine (not in the biz) and they've never even heard the name.

A not so amusing coincidence on this issue. I have x-particles, which uses an online licensing scheme. Yesterday was starting up C4D and x-particles wouldn't load - came back with a "not connected to internet" - though I was connected in this case. I kept trying and it said the same thing, not connected. Meanwhile all network connections worked. Still is a dead plugin today. Not sure if it will fix itself or some other thing is going on Luckily I didn't need x-particles for the job I'm on. But if I was on a deadline and this nonsense occurred we would be in serious trouble - can't tell the client, gee, can't work on your job because of some glitch in the MAXON server. I just thought how NOT funny this was. A reason I hate subscriptions - and a real world reminder that these problems do occur. But the 'whole world' will be happy! (can't stand that puerile tagline)

Yes, and we do deal with CAD files a lot, and do own a copy of Modo just to deal with making better models and CAD issues (Power Translators makes a better CAD model with less polygons than C4D). Irritates me to spend on all that extra software, but then we also have PTC Creo (not a favorite) We make some frightening meshes sometimes because we deal with complex human tissue (it is also a UV nightmare). And clients have crushing deadlines that we have to deal with. Speed is critical. If I had endless time I would make pristine meshes - but time for that doesn't always exist. In the end we will cheat it and know how to make it look great (but we'd like better more intelligent software to deal with cross sections, cutaways, etc. - and yes, we do use volume builder and I won't into it's issues with texturing). Also I'm hoping for a plugin called quad remesher for r20 while this 'whole world' licensing trainwreck keeps a' tumbling along.

I'm talking about all the new users that they plan on bringing in - that's the whole point of 'whole world' - the base is what they have now. But they don't care about the base they are trying to get 3D into the hands of everyone. I hope that is clear. Ha! Mesh Creation Core™ - I was typing with any editing - I was just talking about the code that deals with creating the geometry (no clue what MAXON terms it, or how many sub areas of code there are (i'm not a programmer) - this part of the software is still unpredictable once you go beyond simple, primitive objects. Hell, dealing with it right now where fill select or phong select can't even select very defined separate geometry. Have you ever tried ring select on complex models, looks like it just selects random polygons. This is not good code.

Will be getting r21 (as my MSA ends in July 2020 and I already paid). So, what to do? r21 breaks all plugins, so I doubt I will be using the new version at all until maybe December at the earliest. Will start learning another 3D app on the side in the meantime, always meant to, but now there is a good reason to. Will see if MAXON fixes their mesh creation core - it is terrible at the moment, generates unholy polygon meshes that need endless fixing. If by next year r22 is the same snore-fest as r21 I'll know that i'll start converting all my libraries and old jobs to another format, baking away animations, etc. (also will have my older permanent versions for this task (just made full backups of previous installers and downloaded and backed up various updaters - I suggest you do the same). My guess is in 2 years when the initial thrill of the subscriptions start losing seats - and they will - as not everyone can do 3D work (note: did you know that certain people have an aptitude for "spatial relations" - specifically the ability to see in 3D in their heads? There aren't a huge number who have that skill - remember the rotating cube with cutouts tests you may have taken?). Software ain't gonna help this - and very complicated software at that. The seats will dropoff after management sees only a few people able to operate it. Revenue will drop and MAXON will be out looking for a base that may have left the building. Only hope MAXON has is to really blow everyone away with features - but I doubt it, as we are now dealing with the corporate, bean-counting MAXON now. That's why McGavaran led off with bevels - that's about what he actually understands about 3D. Thinks people will pay $750+ per year for 3D text. Ha! MBA's are screwing up another company, it's their special skill.

Hi Rick, I don't think it's the tease of new features (which of course we all want) I think it's more being able to get at older configurations. There are many older plugins that are great but only work in r16 or some other old version. Fact is, we have to have r19 available just to open older files from before r12. So we'll always need r19 lurking around. The new "whole world" mass appeal user may never use all the crazy add-ons that are available - and that's great for them. But I think Dave & Co really didn't consider the long-time, hardcore studio user who is actually making the bulk of what is being shown in the commercial space. Can that need be communicated - will they listen you (and us) on this point? Just have an archive that is "unsupported" for the known unknown.

Definitely agree - I do that now with any critical software. Things do disappear on the internet, generally installers and other large files. Your social media posts may not disappear, but the valuable stuff does. And also MAXON has a habit of breaking plugins, so i keep some old versions around in case I need to run some past plugin - has saved me multiple times. That's a fact.

It’s funny I’ve been doing this for so long I know how the meetings went… Actually, what is below is more brutally phrased, as this stuff it’s always parsed in nicer, more optimistic ways, but this sums it up. MBA Hack: “Don’t worry, we can keep our current users happy by giving them a “perpetual” license. At least for now.” MAXON staffer: “But they aren’t going to be thrilled by this news. And it really isn’t perpetual.” MBA Hack: “We know that, but its our job to sell this initiative - this is how it is going to be. So just keep those people calm until this gets fully implemented, We’ll put out the monthly price, It will seem cheap.” MAXON staffer: “But it’s the same price as an MSA was, maybe more. And it’s not really monthly, it’s annual” MBA Hack: “yes, but we’ll sell the hell out of the value and simplicity of it.” LATER… MAXON staffer: “I just got some user feedback online, it looks like there’s an insurrection with our base.” MBA Hack: “Well they are going to have to live with it, the decision’s been made, too late to change it. I’m sorry for them. Keep pushing the value proposition - we have perpetual for many of them now. Once the transition is over we’ll just make it more and more unacceptable to stay stuck in perpetual. Eventually most of them will have lost any resistance to the future. And in a year, If if they leave, then our new customers will more than make up for it in our revenue stream - it won’t matter if they leave then. This is a bright day for MAXON.” MAXON staffer: “I feel dirty” MBA Hack: “Look - this is the way it is. It’s set in stone. We can’t go backward. This will be the best for everyone. It’s… cost effective, a high level approach, a strategy initiative, robust, empowering, a win-win….” (etc, etc, etc. More MBA doublespeak… forever. (FWIW - have had to listen to this MBA nonsense for too long - there is a “Business Meeting Bingo” card that I always have up on long calls, good for (quiet) laughs - mute button helps too) So back to cases - Rick, I run a business. So what am I getting for loyalty? Loyalty is a real and valuable asset. I treat my longtime clients with special care. And MAXON is not so big that this doesn’t matter. Unfortunately McGavaran is still bathed in the corporate culture of Adobe - but C4D isn’t that monolithic, and won’t be. 3D is a niche product. It won’t be widely adopted like Photoshop. What are the longtime users really getting that makes this worth while to not jump ship now? I know it’s not your fault, you have your marching orders. But we need something rock solid within a month. Note: Maybe we all need to make our grievances clearly known higher up the food chain. I’m guessing we should be emailing those at the top, VP and above, and maybe even the suits at Nemeczek (sp?)

I think they should be a bit afraid. First, they aren't Adobe, with a suite of many apps, most with no real competitors. They also don'y and will never have a huge customer base like Adobe. Adobe is huge - 10,000+ employees, how big is MAXON in comparison? I saw there are 111 employees on Linkedin. Someone may know the number, but they are not Adobe. Hell, they aren't even Autodesk. Second, 3D is not so easy to use or learn - I have watched people just give up on it out of frustration - they can make a few things, but nothing really great. It ain't Photoshop or InDesign. They may get a bunch of subscriptions at first, but how long will that last? There will be a falloff as companies realize they don't need many seats at all, and some will just keep a few, swapping them so easily via that portal. And they still have to come up with $720 per seat per year. What MAXON should want is loyalty - and flexibility. So they should make entry easy, but also keep loyalty (which can't be bought). Again, if they think they are Adobe, they really have drunk the MBA, "everything is widget" kool-aid in the executive suite. I hope they wake up from the delusion they sold themselves.

Thinking about it, you are 100% correct. Think of all the plugins that would be useless. Think of all the textures that are unavailable. Think of your model library. We have a ton of them which we consider assets, that allow us to do jobs faster than recreating whole worlds from scratch, and they are all specially textured with precise UVs for use in C4D. It isn't just C4D, but all the assets which our company uses that are associated with that install. Again, I felt bad about using the word 'dabbler' about who MAXON are appealing to. But it's true, they are appealing to people who if they stop paying, really don't have any assets or even care about the software. You can always make a jiggly sphere or beveled text in another program.

Yes, it's very different. Not even close. I don't need to open my old phone calls (I don't think I would even want to!).

Nope - that about sums it up. Read their FAQ again - it's all corporate double speak. The translation is: You are all now renters. Paying monthly doesn't really mean monthly - it actually means paying a full annual fee. The best deal you get is an annual renter fee of $720 - if you stop paying you can't open your old jobs (and you can't do anything about it because it says it in the fine print you agreed to). If our server has a hiccup, not our problem (read the fine print again). We're breaking every single one of your plugins too - deal with it. We're giving you bevels that actually work now, so why should you be disappointed? Don't be ungrateful. It costs about the same as it ever did with the MSA, but now you don't own it. The 'whole world' means you - all of you - are now our little bank accounts that adds to a sum that we now own in perpetuity.

Also something I've been reading around the web is that the $60/month deal (annual subscription) isn't charged once per month. It's charged all at one time. So if you want the deal you still need to fork over $720 + tax immediately. If true, this isn't what is being presented. To use the car analogy, it's like saying your new car only costs $300/month but demanding the full $35,000 before you can drive it away.

R20 has a serial number - it will work forever, anywhere. Even after a zombie apocalypse or a major internet outage!

I think this was bad management on MAXON's part. The bitter pill of this subscription mess - that screws over anyone who owned Studio and was paying the MSA (we owned an asset) - should have been sweetened with some killer features to, at the very least, distract us. Why do we buy any software? What is it's value? The features - that's it - don't care about lheir logo, or their tagline, or their branding initiative. Price is a factor, but the features are why I pay. If it was price only I'd use Blender - it's free! So management is interested in the price and revenues, and should be. But what they sort of forgot is that they are selling features. It looks like management had a kool-aid moment (maybe they took mushrooms with the accounting department) and decided price was more important than new features. And look at the change list for R21, look at what tops it. This 'one, weird, wacky world for everyone' initiative is first on the list - that doesn't help me get a job done, in fact, it's annoying. But it shows what managements priorities are. And they aren't about improving the software. And that is even more worrying than anything. EDIT: The top of the list say "Customer Journey' (this is the subscription mess). I don't want to go on a journey! I'm fine where I am.

You are right! Volumes are amazing - was very happy with that when it came out in r20. r21 has made me crabby! Ha! I should honestly just get back to work, but I do think MAXON needs to know that they have made some of their longtime, loyal users very unhappy with this 'whole real total world' strategy.

I was just checking - and was truly hopeful (actually) - volume builder is very nice and useful, but sometimes booles allow a simpler mesh and will bring over polygon selection tags that speed up assigning textures to the various intersections. Just had this issue building a series of blood vessels with layered interior walls (cross section). With volume builder I had a nice mesh but only as a 'whole' object.

Okay, just to be fair - I have heard the endless "under the hood" improvements argument. Can someone who is running r21 make a boole subtract from 2 complex (ugly) meshes, then "make editable" then put it in a SubDivision surface object, then make that editable and show the result so I can see if the polygons created are any better? Include the originals in the file so i can do the same boole operation in r20 and see if there is any difference in the meshes at all. If there is no difference, the core is the same old core and I'll hold off installing r21. Here is a loft and a sweep, booled and then put in a subdivision from r20. Heinous!

Just looked at the feature list - seems the subscription model and software programming to handle the licensing is what I paid for in my MSA! Yay! Someone said it feels 'snappier' when asked about improvement - that old joke isn't even funny anymore. I will be curious to see the geometry of two mesh objects when I run a boolean subtract on it. Will it still create a horrible mesh? That is the real test of these 'under the hood' improvements. I've been using this app forever and have held on expecting something amazing, usually there was at least one feature I liked every year - and a subscription service is NOT amazing to me. Maybe it is to management - and I think that's the problem, r21 is exciting for the MBAs and the people in accounting - they probably started dancing! The accountants got the features they wanted! The rest us us got code fixes in bevels! And an inability to own our software. Sorry but the feature list is pathetic. Now I own an MSA until next year and will get r21 in September (and will also get the gift of a boatload of broken plugins for my trouble - some may never work again because the developer won't update them, or is out of business or out of the game - so I will lose some capability for my trouble). I really don't want to have to learn a new app (ie MODO) as I have so much invested in C4D - but those of us who had Studio and were paying for an MSA are getting screwed hard. The car analogy is good, being told there are improvements to my car, like not owning it anymore - and that you need to have a wifi connection to start it. Accounting, management and the 3D dabbler have a win! The dabbler can now make AMAZING 3D text - just spellbinding 3D text. And I can make an intricate picture frame! Plus there are some features that allow you to make amazing spinning field patterns (stuff that no client will ever pay for) just what the masturbatory dabbler has been dreaming of. What a grand day for C4D.