3D-Pangel

Would that review be written using the demo or would you be seriously considering purchasing an R20 license? Just wondering if there is a possible future where you come back as a current (and up to date) user. Here's hoping for that day because should it happen then MAXON must have released an amazing version. Until then, we will keep the light on for you! Dave

Next year? Trust me, the "R20 wish list" thread will be brought up in a little over two weeks on August 1, the day after R19 is announced at Siggraph.

Enough said. Dave

That was the original intent of the first post on this thread. Can anyone point out where the core is in action on past releases up to and including R18. I was hoping Fritz would be able to elaborate more on that because you are right: the tendency is to talk up new capabilities and tools rather than performance improvements to existing tools (other than rendering), so we hear very little. You would have to read them to be bothered by them....which I don't as I know where they are going. Kind of like watching Fox News or CNN....you know where their biases are and therefore you have a tendency not to watch them unless you tend to agree with those biases. Same with reading Cutman's posts. His bias is very evident. Personally, I don't know what made him hold a grudge for so long against MAXON (its been like 3 years since he last upgraded), but I think it is time to move on. Even Nigel has nice things to say about MAXON from time to time. One thing which we fail to recognize is that some companies can implode when they start to work on a new core. Here is the worst case scenario: There is a drop in new sales once the word gets out that a new core is coming...why buy the old core...wait for the new core. Of course, nothing goes according to schedule and things take longer than expected. As the delays mount, no updates are being released because all the focus is on the new core - so again, the revenue stream tightens further. The market continues to move forward and users are leaving the platform because their patience has run out. To compensate, there is a constant feature creep to what goes into the new core...which in-turn delays the release of the new core. What should have taken 2 years now takes 5. With a hit to revenue, the company is subsisting longer than expected on current cash reserves. They take out a loan which on paper looks good if they release the new core per the latest revision to the timeline. Of course that doesn't happen so now cash is really tight as they have to pay off the loan. No pay raises, no perks. Developers get tired of working for a company that is living on a tight budget and seek greater fortunes elsewhere. With a loss of developers, the new core takes longer than anyone every anticipated. Everything just spirals out of control. If you look at Lightwave and a number of smaller players that have since closed shop you may realize that there is some truth to this worst case scenario.. This is what can happen if you don't manage the shift to a new core effectively. But MAXON has actually navigated these waters quite well (if anything, they are awesome business managers). Yes, we were all unhappy with R17, but the "Takes" system really does not get the credit it deserves. Are things going as fast as we would like....well....they never do. But the company has not imploded. You are still getting regular updates every year without fail and MAXON is still generating cash and using that cash to grow their software development team. This is a good sign folks. I have put a ton on money into C4D and its eco-system of tutorial developers, scripts and plugin developers, texture/shader developers and modelers. I want them around for the long haul and I am pretty confident that they will be there well into R100...which as Cerbera has accurately predicted will involve a fiber to the brain interface and the realization of the "do what I am thinking" button next to the "make great art" button! Dave

Any more information on that 3rd party GUI? To me a logical interface is crucial and probably second only to stability and tools working as expected that keep me with C4D. Blenders growing capability and low cost (if I was an active user I would support the foundation) are attractive but I can't get past the interface. Dave

Love it. Any chance of posting an image of the mesh with sub-divisions both on and off? Also, wasn't there always a slightly red tinge to the texture on the eye's? It may be there because it would only show under certain lighting conditions in the movies (in fact I remember one scene in A New Hope where you actually see David Prowse's eyes)

MAXON may not realize (yet) that there upgrade policy is a double edged sword. On the plus side it holds us captive because the cost of opting out of any upgrade can be very high if you decide to upgrade later. If you miss more than two releases than you might as well purchase a whole new license. So this is a plus for MAXON as it protects their annual revenue should they decide to go light on any individual upgrade. We keep upgrading each year because it is cheaper in the long run. Plus we keep hoping that the next release will be "the big one". The downside for MAXON (that they better start to embrace) is that should your patience finally wear out because the current upgrade is weak is that when you opt of upgrading, that due to the higher costs of upgrading later that you are in fact deciding to leave C4D for good. Now I would imagine that the percentage of users who opt of any upgrade is not enough yet to threaten MAXON's earnings....in fact, I think they are making more money than ever. So MAXON has everything going in their favor. We are a captive user-base and MAXON can continue to support their development at a pace that makes financial sense for them (if anything MAXON is lead by some pretty astute business people). But here is the risk that MAXON may be missing because it involves human nature rather than profits or features: people don't like to feel trapped. They will put up with it but ultimately it hits a tipping point if they have had enough of paying more for the MSA than what they feel the upgrades are worth (this is especially true of Studio owners). Now we have been in this situation since R14 and have heard a slew of promises about the new core but really not seeing those promises fulfilled. Plus the more you rely on plugins or other programs to fill in the gaps of C4D, the less dependent you become on C4D upgrades. So what may happen is that there could be a growing and hidden sentiment of users finally saying "enough" should MAXON put forth yet another weak release. They will be vocal, angry and in-turn cause others on-the-fence about upgrading to opt out as well. As the choir of angry voices grow, then the movement to opt out gains momentum. It will come unannounced and happen all at once. Think how Brexit caught the U.K. political elite by surprise.....same forces at work. It's just basic human nature: fundamentally, we don't like to be held captive and when they rebel, it happens all at once. So apart from improving C4D at a faster pace (which probably won't happen because it just takes time to make stable software), they need to give us a reason to be patient. They need to be more open about communicating what future updates may contain. They don't even need to peg a future feature to a future release. The Bodypaint beta shows a softening on this, but that was after a decade of complaints. Honestly, in today's culture that level of patience is going away so MAXON has to become more open on all areas of the program because once people leave, chances are they are not coming back. Dave

All, This has been a very illuminating thread. Can anyone confirm if ProRender will allow emissive materials? That alone would really make me happy about R19. Someone mentioned support for OpenVDB, butI am not sure if that alone will be enough as I think you also need a particle system that can generate the data (any hints from Insydium at NAB on this?). One other question: How much of a game changer would it be for people if R19 now supported import/export to Allegorithmic Substance Painter? C4D already supports Substance materials, so this would be a logical next step. Dave

Okay....I have been away from this thread for quite some time for a number of reasons. On coming back to it and reading through it, here are some of the major themes: No one see's the new core in action in R18. In fact, R18 feels pretty similar in terms of speed and power to past versions. Pro-Render is most likely going to be the "big new feature" in R19, but it won't really be fully implemented and production ready until sometime after R19 (hopefully R20). Bodypaint Beta fails to impress as their has been no real improvement to UV's. R19 is really going to feel more like a 0.5 release than a full release so don't get your hopes up. If you want faster implementation of features then you need to go to a subscription model for legal reasons. Users are on-the-fence about renewing their MSA in light of the features expected in R19. Just like we were all on the fence with R18, and R17 and.......etc. Just for once I would love it if MAXON released something that was just a no-brainer when it comes to deciding about upgrading. Modo is slowly shedding its reputation for instability while at the same time really impressing everyone with best-of-breed tools being implemented at a fast pace. But don't kid yourself, new tools are still unstable but just fixed quickly within 3 point-releases. Well...color me depressed. Are we just a gloomy bunch or did I get a fair read on the major themes of this thread? ....I think I will go back to Etch-a-Sketch. Something rather peaceful about art created with only two knobs. Dave

Yes...it is nice. Any chance of getting some specs on the scene file (total polygons, total objects, number of lights) ? The Radeon Pro Duo specs are pretty beefy. Anyone have any Cinebench data on that card? Dave

My calendar probably won't start to clear out until early July (China 6/15 to 6/25, family stuff sometime the week of 6/26, and then the July 4th weekend). So the challenges run one month at a time? Do they all start at the beginning of the month? There was a lot of neat models on that site. Do you just pick one or is one picked for you? Ideally, I would like to work on a model I am excited about - if not, it may not have a "blast" working on it. I tend to favor environments (cities, nature, etc) more so than characters or still life's. Dave

Wow...thanks for sharing. Is there a time limit for these challenges? I ask because this is a hobby, I will be leaving on a business trip to China soon and then I have some family obligations coming up. So time is limited but this really does look like a lot of fun. So yes, I am interested. Dave

I am first and foremost a hobbiest. Modeling was always the best of my mediocre skills so that is why I wanted to push myself into a new area. My weakest is probably anything involving Bodypaint....so I may go there next. I am very happy that you liked it.....from you that is high praise because you are up there in my "CG Hero" list along with Ansel Hsaio and Stefan Morrell. Dave

Other than publishing posts about R19 or plugin developers, I thought I would share a WIP this time to prove that I do actually work on improving my C4D skills and not just a trouble maker on the Cafe. In this case, I really wanted to focus on lighting and texturing. Now, is it cheating to purchase a model for another program and convert it to C4D? Well....that is what I did in this case. Stefan Morrell is one of my favorite artists. Along with Ansel Hsaio, I just collect pictures of their work and appreciate them as tremendous works of art. Well, Stefan is also known as Stonemason in the Daz3D world (his Greeble City blocks collection is pretty famous). Daz3D had a pretty good sale some months ago and I took advantage of it. The models export from Daz as FBX which can then be imported into C4D, but the lighting, textures and some of the modeling needs to be redone. I took one model, Urban Future 2 as an opportunity to really push my texturing and lighting skills. I completely embraced the new reflectance shader and dived in (no specular channel used) and had to create reflection maps either externally or internally within C4D. I then went to work on the lighting, placing well over 200 individual lights within the scene. Custom luminance maps were created as well for all the signs and windows. While I may not have modeled it, I did put a lot into it. Here are the results: Compare these to the Daz3D link provided above under Urban Future 2 and let me know if you think I appropriately honored the work of a master. The far more gifted C4D artists out there may wonder "what's the point...he did not model it". But as for me....well, I had a blast. Dave

All of this would be moot if MAXON followed the same policy of Luxology....all upgrades are the same cost regardless of the previous version. Honestly, if what you are saying is true, then being a Studio owner is essentially paying a premium for nothing special. I know others have brought that up with past releases so it is disappointing to think that R19 will be treating us like that again. Maybe when the new core is finally revealed, there will be such awesome "Studio-only" tools that the cost of all the previous upgrades makes it all worthwhile. But again, to continue with the home remodeling analogy, as a Studio owner I feel like I am constantly writing checks to the contractor with no idea what the finished home is going to look like nor when it will be ready. Look if R19 is even more lackluster than R17, then what will it take for MAXON to finally give us some detailed information about their plans? The total s**t storm over R17 got some response from MAXON, but who wants to go through that again? Hopefully, neither does MAXON and they are a bit more preemptive by communicating pretty quickly after R19 is released about what is coming. That is the only thing that will calm the masses because a lot people were on the fence after R17. R18 brought them back in, but a weak R19 release could be the final straw for many particularly if they have no idea of what is planned. Dave

Wow....please let me apologize. It was extremely unfair to lump you into that post. I guess it was just coming from a place of impatience on my part as that preview was pretty outstanding. Also...I would assume that "before my parental time started" means you became a new father? If so, congratulations. One thing that all first time parents quickly realize is this: life as you knew it has ended....but only to be replaced by a much more fulfilling life. So family takes priority above all. Do not give my post a second thought. Again, my apologies. Dave Are you under an NDA? Can you share what you saw? Dave

Okay...so you haven't seen it either. I was wondering if it was just me. As we tick off all the enhancements we hope to see in R19, I am mindful of something that Nigel kept telling us which was MAXON will not waste time working on updating a tool if they now that tool will be completely re-written in a future release. He also felt that the major developers have probably been working on the new core for 6 to 7 years s they have essentially gone into hiding for that long. So what does this all mean? Well, to use an analogy, I would imagine rewriting C4D is like renovating an old home. The first thing that needs to be done is to replace the stone foundation with a solid concrete foundation, then replace the wiring, plumbing, etc. We want the new kitchen but they are still working on the foundation. Concrete foundations are not sexy, we don't care about the new wiring. We want the new kitchen, the new bathroom, etc. But at some point, all those structural improvements get completed and then we can visibly see them putting into place the things we care about....the flooring, the new windows, the new kitchen. And usually those changes happen rather quickly towards the end of the project. If you have ever been through a major home remodel, you know what I am talking about. The last 3 to 5 weeks out of a 6 month project are always the most exciting. I am sure Hrvoje has seen the finished plans. He knows what is coming and if you read some of his posts, he keeps alluding to all the great things to come, just as their CTO, Harald Schneider did in the blog post "Foundations for the Future" (see...even he is using the home construction analogy ;-). But so far, with C4D we are not at that "exciting" phase yet and it has been 6 to 7 years since they "broke ground" on this new architecture. I mean we have seen some nice things, but not quite up to what their CTO has promised. So overall, I have no idea how all of what MAXON is excited about will role out. Will it be incrementally or all in one major big-bang of a release? All, I know is that we really haven't seen it yet. Hopefully, R19 does not prompt us to react like those old ladies did in that classic 1984 Wendy's commercial: Dave

ProRender Features list: Key Features Fast and accurate – it’s designed to be physically accurate, lightning fast and easy to use. Hardware agnostic – if your computer can run OpenCL™ 1.2, it can run Radeon ProRender. Fully integrated – for use with Autodesk® 3ds Max® 2016 SP3 and higher. Multiple camera views – physical camera, depth of field, and motion blur. VR creation support with panoramic and stereoscopic VR camera views. Its own Environment setup – letting you work in IBL or sky mode, together with photometric or emissive light setups. Supports lights from HDRI environments, letting you blend a scene in with its surroundings. Physically correct material library – comes with its own material library optimized for use with our renderer, providing an easy starting and reference point for your own shaders. Plays nice with others – works well with output from Substance and Quixel. Supports Windows® 7, 8.1, 10. Not sure....but is emissive light set-ups the same as emissive materials? If they are one-in-the-same, then my day is made if this is a feature for R19. But before I start celebrating, note that MAXON is not committing to implement every feature at this time. So you may or may not see any of this in R19. This is not our first rodeo...we know the drill on discussing new features. Also, OpenCL gets updated about every 2 years which feels slow (not sure how it compares to other platforms). Should Apple back away from the Mac Pro then how much development will be put into OpenCL? I understand that Apple did announce a new MacPro for 2018...but 5 to 6 years between hardware updates is not a good sign and until that announcement there were rumors it was being dumped. Nevertheless, the market just seems to be going in another direction so adopting this platform seems a bit rocky to me. I hope it does not turn into another pyrocluster. Dave

Given your modeling skills, I am surprised you are not a beta tester. But a better knife tool is not key evidence of a new core in action. New core as described by MAXON points to so many other capabilities than smarter modeling algorithms....unless I am reading into "massive data parallelism" too much. For me, apart from the hope of what a true new core would be giving you (like fluid simulation with OpenVDB support), I would love to see the following with the existing tool set: Emissive materials --- please!!! Very desperate for this and would change the render quality/capability in a huge way. A proper symmetry tool...select an polygon, click a button....you get symmetry about that polygon regardless of where the object is located within the scene file. Now imagine if you were to animate that capability....pretty interesting motion graphics opportunities. A spot light or tube light that allows you to independently change the size of the opening at each end. I hate using volumetric spot lights that start from a razor sharp point. The ability for lights (especially volumetric lights) to pass through polygons shaded with transparency or alpha maps. An upgrade to the sky tool to include spectral atmospheric effects. Sorry...the existing sky tools are painfully outdated given what you accomplish with other programs like Terragen and/or Vue. As well as what everyone else wants (Bodypaint, viewport, etc). Dave

Okay....with the inevitability of the seasons, in 3 months all will be revealed about R19 (we hope). So before we start to get into a deep wish list of expected features, I would actually like to go back to the now famous quote made on the MAXON Blog back in February of 2016 (Foundations for the Future): So the new core has been creeping into C4D since R16...and given that this new core allows for "massive data-parallelism and optimized data structures" you get the sense that ultimately C4D will crunch through huge scene files with the ease of a hot knife cutting through butter. So I have to ask this given that it has been two releases since then, has anyone noticed a substantial improvement in R18's power? Three years is a long time in the computer industry. Think of it like dog years. So when talking about improvements over a period of 3 years you also have to factor in hardware upgrades. So I can't tell if it is C4D getting more powerful or my hardware is getting faster. So did I miss something? Do others detect the new core in action as described above? I am not a power user by any means, so I would really love to hear from those who work in the depths of C4D's capabilities and push it to its limits. Now remember, I am not talking about slight improvements in performance of the selection tools, spline tools, etc. I am talking about a huge paradigm shift as promised in the quote above. I mean "a highly efficient threading system for massive data-parallelism and new optimized data structure" is quite a huge promise....and this is from a company that doesn't make promises. So I have to believe it to be real more so than marketing. I guess my point is this: real proof to me of the new core making itself known to the C4D user will be when MAXON releases some killer feature such as a fluid simulation system, Bodypaint improvements that put it on par with Mari (e.g. handling 4K images with ease) and/or an uber-instancing capability, etc. Other programs in Studios price range (or lower) have these capabilities. Plus when you consider that Maya has integrated their fluids tools into their motion graphic toolset, you would think that would be a real threat to C4D. So something along those lines would make perfect sense and come at the right time for MAXON. But honestly, if R19 looks anything like R17 in terms of new features, it won't be pretty. If we get improvements in R19 equivalent to version 2 of the color picker, than MAXON will begin to sound like the boy who cried wolf regarding what to expect from the new core. In short, credibility will be lost...which is never good.....unless people can start to point out what I may have missed in R17 and R18 that shows the new core in action. So to be clear, I am not blaming MAXON of being too slow or not doing enough. I could very well have missed all their excellent work since R16 based on my own understanding and expertise with C4D. Therefore hearing about where others have felt the presence of the new core in action to the level promised in their blog post above would help temper my expectations for R19. I think it would be healthy at this point for users to really show where they are reaping the benefits of the new core...if possible. I have some doubt because you would have heard about this before, but maybe I just missed it. If not, then after 3+ years of new core development, we should start to see something in R19 that makes us all realize it was worth the wait. Dave

Wow...I remember when Terragen was open source. I also remember when they started a partnership with Digital Domain during the remake of the Time Machine back in 2002. They were always viewed as a partial alternative but not a worthy substitute to Vue because Vue could do plants and trees! Terragen was lagging in that respect even though they had some pretty outstanding lighting models. Not only are those gaps closed, but they have replaced Vue in the market judging by the films they have worked on (all recent...which is a good sign). Costs are about half of Vue too. I am going to download the free version and see if I can get my head wrapped around the interface. I have always viewed Vue's interface as clumsy. To change the view in any viewport you must move the scene camera (if you can find the camera in big scenes). I do like Vue's ecosystems and painting capabilities and the built in integration with C4D in Vue xStream. But even on my workstation it really kills the performance which means that it kills my ability to enjoy using the program as well. If Terragen is easier to use, faster to render and smoother to navigate, then this could get interesting. Dave

AsileFX is a vendor of tutorials and assets for Vue products. e-on has had its difficulties lately since they were acquired and took way too long to release their 2016 update and as such have kind of gone the way of Lightwave -- a once great program slowly falling out of use in the common market (their list of movies stops with films from 2012). So maybe business hasn't been that great for AsileFX lately...maybe it has. Not sure but you be the judge based on the following sale: 12 texture collections totaling over 2363 textures and 7002 image maps (16.2 Gb of files) for $99 (was $399). Each texture is in a tiff, PNG or JPEG format file so it is applicable to more than just Vue (like C4D) Find out more here. If you are Vue user, pretty much everything else at the site is going on sale too but the textures have some use to the C4D community. Again, when you see prices cut this deeply you have to wonder what is going on. Regardless, I hope all is well but whatever the circumstances you have to admit that this is a pretty good deal especially if you find yourself a little lite on building your own personal library of textures. Dave BTW: Anyone know what has replaced Vue as the top professional landscape software package?

Welcome to the Cafe......really great to hear from you. You might be interested to know that it was Forester that enticed me to walk away from e-on's Plant Factory and seriously considering dropping Vue xStream all together (though I will admit that spectral atmosphere's and their new landscaping tools still impress)! So it is really great to here that Forester 2 is in the works....but it would be even better after two years if you could give some forecast on which year or quarter that you are targeting to release it. I am sure it will be worth the wait, but how much longer do we need to wat? Dave

Also be aware that some plugins use all the cores outside of rendering such as X-Particles and TFD uses the GPU (Nvidia CUDA cores) for generating the simulation. There are also other programs such as video editing and compositing programs that are fully multi-threaded. I bring this up because if you are considering Xeon's then you are considering workstations rather than PC's and if you are going into those price ranges then you should consider the performance benefits a workstation is going to give all your software rather than just C4D. Otherwise you may be happier with spending less for a PC. Dave

Dr. O'Reilly (given what you can accomplish, "Mr." just does not cut it ;-), Interesting that you mention both NAB and the newsletter. I do get the newsletter, but there was nothing in there about XP-4 in newsletters that were released after NAB unless I completely missed it underneath all the information about Cycles 4D (service patches, new reflectance features, extended demo, etc). In fact, it was that apparent silence about XP-4 after NAB that prompted me to start wondering what the hell is going on. I also visited the Insydium web page for any information on the next XP release but the only thing listed under "News" is again Cycles 4D related. Honestly, if you are announcing things at NAB about XP-4, why is it not on your own news page? It's almost as if Cycles 4D has consumed mind share and resources within Insydium and XP (which put you guys on the map) has become an after thought. What you just shared about XP-4 is great, exciting and encouraging. But where is that type of vibe being created outside of NAB? Now don't misconstrue these criticisms. I love you guys and want you to be wildly successful but please shift a little bit of your PR machine away from Cycles 4D and back to XP because it has been too long. Dave